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[–]Wanga 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (98 children)

I think maybe we need a longer list of social norms/guidelines.

Wikipedia has the strongest, most resilient culture of any major web platform. It gets stronger as everyone else decays. I think part of the reason is that they have a long wiki list of guidelines, so they can say, "You're using weasel words", or whatever specific violation people are using.

The pyramid of debate is fine and dandy, but it's not enough to cover all situations.

[–]sawboss 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Wikipedia has the strongest, most resilient culture of any major web platform

It's a tyranny. That's how they maintain their culture. If SaidIt wants to promote a monoculture then SaidIt also must become a tyranny.

[–]Wanga 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

Wikipedia is a mashup of majority-democracy, consensus-democracy, monarchy, anarchy

[–]JasonCarswell 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Was.

Now Wikipedia is a tyranny of the "majority" via an army of CIA and Mossad led propaganda admins.

[–]Wanga 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (9 children)

I'm skeptical of arguments that claim everyone who argues against them online is a government agent.

[–]JasonCarswell 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

I'm skeptical of arguments that claim I said everyone who argues against them online is a government agent.

Feel free to go through my Wikipedia history and look at the conflicts and tell me they all make sense.

[–]Wanga 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

[–]JasonCarswell 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

If you only edit the safe topics you won't have a problem.

If you push the limits whether frequently or infrequently you'll see what I'm talking about. I haven't been super active on WP for all dozen years solid, but I'm pretty familiar with it.

On the other hand, I'm still learning Reddit culture.

[–]Wanga 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Reddit culture is about memorising a list of memes and then doing this with them

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Why did you link to the Wikipedia article on stimming?

[–]sawboss 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Skepticism is a fine muscle which everyone should exercise more.

[–]JasonCarswell 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

Wikipedia sucks ass. They banned me for a year for being "another polite truther". Last week I was trying to add to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitChute and met irrational resistance because they're trying to suppress new freeing technologies like BitChute's Comment Freely app : https://github.com/BitChute/commentfreely

Because it's "not notable". There's a FUCK TONNE on Wikipedia that is not notable.

"Not notable" = weasel words if ever there were.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah not notable is insane, that's as subjective as they come, and it costs like a penny a year to have an extra page.

[–]JasonCarswell 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

If only they were constantly begging for money to support their propaganda campaign, then maybe we could afford some freedom and solutions to include "fringe" and "fancruft".

[–]Wanga 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

What's a polite truther?

[–]JasonCarswell 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Truther: https://infogalactic.com/info/User:JasonCarswell

9/11 was an Anglo-Zionist-Globalist inside and outside international snowjob followed by Athrax to scare everyone into silence. https://steemit.com/september2001/@jasoncarswell/never-forget-sept-2001-six-events-reclaimthenarrative-fightelitesnoteachother

If you act nice and don't let their bullshit bug you (because they'll toss you out) then they call you "polite".

These are old and need updating and major cleaning up:

https://infogalactic.com/info/Truther_(disambiguation) - partly banned

https://infogalactic.com/info/Trutherism

Wikipedia won't allow articles like those or like these:

https://infogalactic.com/info/Pedophocracy

https://infogalactic.com/info/List_of_acknowledged_pedophilia_elites

https://infogalactic.com/info/List_of_alleged_pedophilia_elites

https://infogalactic.com/info/Conspirophile

https://infogalactic.com/info/Dynamic_silence

https://infogalactic.com/info/Eating_You_Alive - banned

https://infogalactic.com/info/InterPlanetary_File_System - partly banned

https://infogalactic.com/info/IOTA_(technology) - banned

https://infogalactic.com/info/James_Corbett_(journalist) - banned several times

https://infogalactic.com/info/Joseph_Atwill

https://infogalactic.com/info/Lionel_(radio_personality) - mostly banned

https://infogalactic.com/info/SaidIt

https://infogalactic.com/info/The_Great_NHS_Heist - banned

https://infogalactic.com/info/Tigole


EDIT: I added "banned" after the ones that were banned from WP. The others I didn't even try.

[–]Wanga 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

wew lad

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

That's 'cause they're written in a very biased way. The IOTA article was just an advert, "list of acknowledged pedophilia elites" I can tell from the title is not written neutrally (despite that being a perfectly understandable stance, it's not the Wikipedia way)…

Wait, they banned the Saidit article? Huh. After reading it, I see why; it's written like an advert:

Within the "subs" members may contribute titled "posts" with text or a link (to a webpage, image, video, etc (now supporting SVGs, BitChute, PeerTube, and DTube[6])).

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I didn't write the IOTA article, I rescued it. Wikipedia didn't even give it a fucking chance.

In the old days a dozen years ago folks would add and help and contribute and build better articles. Now they get slammed down right away - especially if they are suppressed content.

They LIE LIE LIE LIE all day long about politics. The government is SCREWING people left right and center.

And yet every single new tech is suppressed because it MIGHT be a scam.

The Wikipedia was is now BULLSHIT CULTURE.

I can tell from the title is not written neutrally

What's wrong with "List of acknowledged pedophilia elites" and "List of alleged pedophilia elites" ?

These pedo elites have been publicly accused or prosecuted. HOW is that not neutral?

NOTHING on Wikipedia is neutral. The aim is for neutrality but in reality it's impossible.

If you read any other article about any major tech company they will write it like an advert without skepticism and in glowing terms. I did no different with the SaidIt article - except I mentioned things forbidden on Wikipeida - like the tabboos and skepticism stuff.

I never even tried to start a Wikipedia article for SaidIt as they will say it's "not notable'. I never said it was banned, though some of them were, I said "won't allow articles like those".

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The IOTA article was… terrible, to be frank. Back when this was all going down, I wrote an answer on IOTA Stack Exchange about this.:

The IOTA page on Wikipedia was deleted because it wasn't a great Wikipedia article). It was poorly sourced, contained much information that wasn't in the sources given... They just decided to rewrite it from scratch because the article was so terrible. The only arguments in favour of keeping it) seem to be about IOTA's notability. And IOTA is notable enough to have a Wikipedia article... just not that article.

The article has been deleted, but that doesn't mean that Wikipedia has no intention of there being an article about IOTA. Here's the latest draft) of the new article... which isn't much better to be honest. Why can't people just get together and write a decent Wikipedia article about IOTA?! This draft, being practically identical to the original, has been deleted. We'll have to wait a bit for an IOTA article.

And it was terrible, because IOTA people kept coming on and making it spammy, advertising it as something it's not. And Wikipedia gave it another chance, and that was ultimately taken down too.


They LIE LIE LIE LIE all day long about politics.

I'd like to see some of that, actually. I was under the impression that Wikipedia stayed away from politics. Or does the staying away count as lying?


What's wrong with "List of acknowledged pedophilia elites" […]?

What's an "elite"? Why are you using "pedophilia" as an adjective? What's "acknowleged"? "List of high-profile convicted paedophiles" might be a better title for the article.


If you read any other article about any major tech company they will write like an advert without skepticism and in glowing terms.

Like the article on Microsoft which discusses EU fines, government surveillance and hypocrisy, and links to the Criticism of Microsoft article three times? The Apple Inc. article could be better, but even that has several sections of criticism and even (a small) one entitled "Criticism and controversies".

The quality of those articles is significantly, significantly higher than the IOTA one.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I didn't write the IOTA article. I'm not defending it. You missed my point. Wikipedia used to build and improve things. Now they just censor things.


I was under the impression that Wikipedia stayed away from politics.

WTF? Every page about every politician is sure to be loaded with crap. WP doesn't stay away from politics AT ALL!

The 9/11 page is lies top to bottom. Russiagate. You name it. Wikipedia only repeats "legitimate" corporate lies news.


What's an "elite"? Why are you using "pedophilia" as an adjective? What's "acknowleged"?

Don't be dunce.

"List of high-profile convicted paedophiles" might be a better title for the article.

Maybe. That's more or less what it's become - anyone with fame and/or power. A wider view shows the broad scale and deep extent of it's all pervasive corruption that is ignored by the elites and those with power, if not participating in it.


All good articles have criticism sections. But if the IOTA can't even get a foothold then how can you even write a criticism. MS and Apple have been around since the 1980s. Has IOTA? Worth billion$. Is IOTA?

You can find a criticism section on the James Corbett and SaidIt articles too.

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Every page about every politician is sure to be loaded with crap.

Interesting. I forgot about actual political issues. A brief survey suggests that many of these are a little biased in their wording, but not quite poor quality; I might touch a few of them up when I've got time for the inevitable debates in the Talk section that follow.


Don't be dunce.

I'm not. Seriously, what counts as "elite"? You're expecting short inferential distances (something I do significantly more than you, so I'm quite chuffed that I can finally call you out on it) and neglecting the vast spectrum of what that word means to different people.

Maybe.

Then maybe you can try making that article on Wikipedia. If you're incredibly careful to tiptoe around with the wording you use, you might get it past the "filter". Focus on wording it so that it doesn't trigger the reflexive "this is bad" response in the new article reviewers and, at least at first, only include people for which you can find:

  • Actual court documents showing the convictions; and
  • At least two news articles from reputable (rightly or wrongly) groups with different biases.

You're targeting an audience, like I am when writing this comment. Make concessions in what you're writing to get your core point across; sure, people will be able to "take you out of context" more easily, but it will be about the trivial ancillary things, not the core ones.


But if the IOTA can't even get a foothold then how can you even write a criticism.

Since I wrote that answer on IOTA Stack Exchange, I always planned to wait a couple of years before writing another article about it, and hope that the article got grounded and started to develop a root system strong foundation of links before it got vandalised by those wanting it to be an advertisement.

You have to write things in the right way. And the only problem with the IOTA article was that it wasn't written like a Wikipedia article.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=elite

Elite : In political and sociological theory, the elite are a small group of powerful people who hold a disproportionate amount of wealth, privilege, political power, or skill in a society. More at Wikipedia

It's not a fucking obscure term. Everyone knows what it is. Except you apparently.

Yes, now that there's enough content gathered up, there might be a chance to create in on WP. I'm banned from doing political stuff there, but I still do little things and am always pushing the envelope - so far undetected since my 2016 ban - but also FAR more ineffective.

Feel free to copy paste the whole thing if you like and edit it down as you see fit. Many of the links and citations will be refuted and thrown out, and some major sections may be deleted but there's enough remaining to be a legit article, or at very least a heavily bulldogged stub. I salute anyone who tries - and I really hope they include the lists - which is why I started it in the first place - so see how legitimately systemic it was.

The article is targeting the truth. I have not said anyone was a pedo without citations. I've not said anyone was one unless they were convicted. The others are allegations - including now dead alleged pedos with hundreds of victims who will never see justice.

You have to write things in the right way.

This has become soft censorship. The authoritarians don't tolerate sloppiness on Wikipedia any more. This has pros and cons. A LOT of information is blocked. That's a huge fucking con.

They could dial it back a bit or a lot and still provide a quality resource, perhaps even far superior.

Reddit and SaidIt are anything but organized - yet they're still great resources.

[–]Arundel 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

https://infogalactic.com/info/The_Great_NHS_Heist

Can I watch this online in full?

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know. I haven't seen it yet myself. Lemme know if you find it.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=The+Great+NHS+Heist

Looks like they're still going but stalled or something.

Official sites: http://selloff.org.uk/ + http://thegreatnhsheist.com/

The Great NHS Heist Documentary trailer No2 - Prof David Whyte Feb 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsQj9K-kzmQ

[–]Wanga 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Are you v4vapid on steemit?

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I am JasonCarswell in all things. Even on Steemit.

https://steemit.com/@jasoncarswell

Feel free to give me all your Steem bucks.

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (42 children)

Before that, we need a stronger… less toxic, honestly, userbase. And we need to work together to decide our norms, with some help from our resident dictators /u/magnora7 and /u/d3rr.

[–]Wanga 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (27 children)

I don't think we should 'wait' for the userbase to improve before drawing guidelines.

Guidelines should help the userbase improve.

[–]JasonCarswell 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree that we don't need to wait. But there is a process in place. That process is not carved in stone and you're welcome to improve it.

Fair warning. You may be ignored. I have been. I'm also surprised when something I find trivial gets a lot of attention.

The SaidItrons are fickle beasts.

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (25 children)

Oh, darn, I'm not following my own guidelines, am I? This'll be harder than I thought.

Yes, that has merit, and I think makes more sense than what I was saying. Want to make a sub? Something like /s/SaiditForum, perhaps? And then the finished guidelines can be posted somewhere, all nicely in one place, by someone who's going to stick around.

[–]sawboss 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

The reason it's so hard to follow these ideas through to their logical conclusion is because, assuming you are capable of self reflection, some part of you must understand that the monoculture you are promoting can only be implemented via censorship and force. I didn't come here to be lectured by moral authoritarians!

[–]happysmash27 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I personally hope to make the culture good by promoting the existing good culture, bringing people closer together and reducing toxicity.

[–]sawboss 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

bringing people closer together

sounds immoral

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

This is a well-designed trap; any attempt by me to argue against it will be labelled "incapable of self-reflection".

I'm not trying to promote a monoculture. I'm trying to promote a better culture – a culture better for the purposes of discussion and debate. And it's my firm belief that, unless you can demonstrate otherwise, a culture can be self-sustaining. We'll have to put the effort into build that culture – I certainly have not been playing the part necessary for creating that culture. But once established, only a flood of new users can knock it down.

[–]sawboss 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

This is a well-designed trap; any attempt by me to argue against it will be labelled "incapable of self-reflection".

Not a trap, just me overestimating you.

I'm trying to promote a better culture

Better according to you. Because you know what's good for everyone, right? Because you are a good person, and therefore everyone must think as you do. Isn't that right?

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Better according to you.

No. Better according to my metrics according to me.

Our problem here is clearly not that one of us cares about the site and one of us doesn't. Our problem is probably not that one of us is insanely clever and one of us is unimaginably stupid. No, our problem is that we disagree on what counts as "better".

What's your definition?

[–]Zombi 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Why not go the middle route. Not guidelines, but principles? Encourage, but don't moderate, content that agrees with principles and ignore those that don't. They aren't strictly followed rules, but ideals we should follow.

You could say the debate pyramid is one of those principles, but maybe we should add more? That way we don't run into /u/sawboss' problem of this becoming a dictatorship while satisfying your problem with the lack of culture. We don't need to ban or punish those that go against our principles, just follow them (the principles) and promote them throughout the site.

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sounds good.

Though we must make sure to consider each comment and post on its own merits. We mustn't blindly support what one person says. I'm a good example of this: I post some high quality content, but if you were to blindly vote "insightful" to everything I say you'd be supporting a lot of drivel.

[–]sawboss 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

No, our problem is that we disagree on what counts as "better".

What's your definition?

SaidIt is already better than Reddit or Voat, and I believe it will remain that way as long as SaidIt can resist the establishment of a monoculture. At this time I do not have specific recommendations for additional rules/guidelines to secure the site against such.

I created my SaidIt account with the understanding that many people here, including SaidIt oldbies I suspect, actually dislike my ideas and would oppose me. GOOD! As long as we can have those disagreements openly, honestly, and with as little interference from mods/admins as tolerable I'm satisfied. I'm happy to be called out when I say something stupid, even though it can be irritating.

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I agree with what you have said. However, you still haven't given a definition for "better". Read The Categories Were Made For Man, Not Man For The Categories and then see if you can say what counts as "good" and what counts as "bad" for this site's culture.

At the moment, we're using the same words to argue different things.


I also make the additional proposition that things can always be improved.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's not that bad.

[–]sawboss 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'll remember this.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yet.

[–]Wanga 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

That will do. That will do nicely.

[–]Wanga 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good boy.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Re-read this post. There's already stuff in place.

[–]poestal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

could you delve more into your definition of toxic users.

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

There aren't many. I'll just namedrop Martin and let some others explain.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Looking back on that debate I can see the problem-solution-reaction strategy at work.

You even submitted the "SaidIt is becoming an echo chamber" idea.

Once again you've managed to stir things up.

You have been working at chipping away at this forum for some time.

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You have been working at chipping away at this forum for some time.

I hope not. Either what I'm saying is true, and thus what I'm chipping away at needs to be chipped away so it can be replaced by something better, or what I'm saying is false and should be quickly and immediately argued against.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. But I don't think Saidit is one of those things.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Who crafted that pith for you?

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Face it. I'm not acting like a shill would.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You are.

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Would a shill help to write the software running the site? If I can do that, I wouldn't need to be a shill because I could just get a job programming.

I still don't know why you make an exception to the debate pyramid to call me names.

[–]sawboss 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

No we don't.

[–]Johnytheanarchist 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

What we really need is to bring in more users, said its biggest problem is it has just over 6k accounts with maybe a few hundred being active for more then a few days

[–]sawboss 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Then post more!

[–]HeyImSancho 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I was part of a forum once that thought bringing in more folks was the best idea ever; the forum went from about this size, maybe a little larger, down to nothing. There are some really dank, and dark spots on the web... lol

I think marketing is good when coupled with strong growth, but it takes participation from all to do that by way of good, or original content. I like the idea of steady organic growth.

No matter, I'll be here to see the experiment; I hope it thrives for all.

[–]magnora7 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah exactly. I would MUCH rather grow slowly with quality users, than quickly with low-quality users.

[–]rockstarsball 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There is a way to balance both. Thats part of what was great about reddit in the golden years. it was a place you could discuss a variety of different topics with people of various levels of intelligence and then pop into a few of the crappy reddits to roll around in the shit for a little while.

Keeping those users around but contained was what reddit failed at and restricting content and speech is the only way they can deal with the fallout of what they did.

Reasonable debate can coexist with retarded hate filled vitrol as long as the boundaries are clearly drawn about what belongs where and what the limits are.

everybody hates something and though we can personally make decisions and opinions on what is acceptable to hate and what isn't. Everyone deserves an outlet for verbal expression of that hate.

i think it is far better choice to just keep them off the front page and keep them contained in their communities, but let them exist for the freakshow appeal.

[–]JasonCarswell 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

What do you propose?

[–]bobbobbybob 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

Being a parent, I learnt that children love strong boundaries.

Setting arbitrary and strict guidelines will result in complaints, but happy users. If those guidelines prevent soy soaked group mind-horrors, then that's even better.

[–]Wanga 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I hate the way Reddit deletes posts for capricious reasons, e.g. "The title of your submission to /r/todayilearned did not begin with 'TIL'. Your post has been deleted." Makes me ragequit.

[–]magnora7 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

Those are the subreddit-specific rules. The only way to prevent that sort of stuff is by having site-wide rules against sub moderator rules

[–]Wanga 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

or by a cultural taboo against it, like Voat

[–]magnora7 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

True, cultural taboos can be powerful but hard to cultivate

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

I'm attempting with these PSAs, but it's not working. I should really look at the psychology papers to figure out a way to do this, but I keep having ethical issues with doing so.

[–]magnora7 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Well the thing is people don't like being told how to act. So the more you go "you all have to act like X" you get 20% who agree, then 20% who go "fuck that, no one tells me what to do, I'm going to do the opposite!" so in the end it's hard to tell if any real progress is made. The latter is called the "Backfire effect" in psychology.

This is also one reason I'm against having tons of rules, because it apparently just pisses everyone off and doesn't actually better define the culture of the site, and kind of just actually acts like a wedge. I think encouraging positivity is a more useful tool to the end of creating a good site culture, than trying to define ever-narrowing rules which just anger people who then feel attacked by those rules.

It's much easier to just group everything under the pyramid of debate, and give individual warnings as specific scenarios arrive, then do a '3 strikes you're out' system. Keeping everything low-pressure like this makes a better community, then trying to play "culture cop". If you see what I mean.

Voat used to have this thing called "protect voat" and it was basically a mob that descended on anyone they didn't like. It was one of the things that was supposed to stop the cultural backslide problem, but only served to intensify it. I try and learn from their mistakes.

This stuff is super tricky. I think it's one of those things where "less is more". And "If you do everything right, they won't know you've done anything at all". Both those quotes often come to mind when administrating or moderating. I haven't found a better technique, personally. But I do appreciate the PSA, everything said. The culture has to hold itself up, at the end of the day. But I think it works best by example, rather than by telling people how to act.

Anyway, that's kind of my take on this whole thing, because it is insanely complex and subtle to make it work right. So that's what I've figured out so far, hope that gives you food for thought.

[–]wizzwizz4[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Definitely food for thought.

Perhaps we could have a little poll thing, and then articles like Part I of this this, and then polls afterwards, and see what happens to people's opinions. We'd have to A|B test it, and have to throw in a tonne of groups and things that we're not targeting with the pseudojournalism to avoid tipping people off… It could be like a competition: who can be the first to spot it? We could run multiple ones at once, and have the polling being constant and ongoing (like chat: in a little box on every page, asking for people's opinions on a scale of 0 to 10 with radio buttons) and it'd encourage people to think critically about everything they read here.

That isn't quite relevant, but it's close.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Very confusing.

Very complicated.

Didn't read the article.

But there's a seed of an idea that is good on a few levels. Participatory community building, statistical analysis, and in this example, journalism quality assessment.

I don't know about the competition part or "radio buttons".

Sounds like you're going after fake news with a truth meter.

If anything this sounds more like a 3rd and maybe 4th vote. I broke "trust" into 2 for the example below, because you may not agree with someone you trust. It's still lacking because they may discuss several matters but it's better than a vague one.

  • Insightful : Y/N (0 to 10 in future?)

  • Fun : Y/N (0 to 10 in future?)

  • Source : untrusted 0 to 10 trusted (default 5)

  • Content : false 0 to 10 true (default 5)

Might be good if there was an option to participate or not in https://saidit.net/prefs/

If you create this system make it flexible to add more pref options in the future, assuming folks want it.

This may also be an opportunity to just start the voting system over from scratch. Yes there may be a lot of kickback but it may be worth it.

[–]magnora7 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That's not a bad idea, my hesitation would be that over-focusing on the rules as a site culture is going to lead to a rule-obsessed and legalistic site culture, and I'm not sure that's desirable. But that's probably one of the better approaches I've heard, I'll think it over some more

[–]Stoner 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wikipedia is known for having an elitist culture that bans wrongthink. Read up on the wikipedia untouchables.