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[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

No X and XY, and not a chimera. The rest of the genes are the same. She (you would say "he"?) didn't get the Y in some 20% of her cells.

If there aren't two sexes how can someone be "both"?

There are two sexes. It's the "only" part in "only two sexes" that makes it not work.

Should they use the male bathroom?

Lol no

So are they mislabelled as "male", or is the bathroom mislabelled as "male"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

No X and XY, and not a chimera.

Yet:

The karyotype of this phenotypically normal mother was 46,XY in blood, 80% 46,XY and 20% 45,X in cultured skin fibroblasts, and 93% 46,XY, 6% 45,X, and <1% 46,XX in the ovary.

She wasn't 100% XY and you literally can not have anything other than XX xor XY (except for Turner's Syndrome which is just X) without being a chimera because the gametes only hold one sex chromosome.

She (you would say "he"?) didn't get the Y in some 20% of her cells.

My question to you is why are you obsessed with what pronoun I would use, what bathroom they should use? Prescribing all these random beliefs to me. Those things are so inconsequential in the grand scheme. If I saw this person in public, based off of that body picture, I would probably say "she". Are you objecting to that? Because that would be extremely inconsistent of you.

There are two sexes. It's the "only" part in "only two sexes" that makes it not work.

I feel like this argument is meaningless and you're only choosing this hill to die on because you think my rhetoric encourages genociding these people or something. When humans evolve a new sex category that is definitively different from XX or XY and are actually fertile at significant rates (probably not in my lifetime), I'll change my tune. There are two sex categories and some disorders cause people to not sexually develop properly. They usually have other health problems and are rarely fertile. And that's sort of the entire point of having sex categories: their roles in reproduction.

So are they mislabelled as "male", or is the bathroom mislabelled as "male"?

They're male but most would assume they're female and I'm not a lunatic who's going to chromosome test every mfer who needs to take a piss. Not even the most rabid conservatives would argue that people with CAIS should be pissing in the men's. The only people who really care about bathrooms anyway are aggrieved straight women who hate it when non-passing heterosexual trannies go in the women's. Most people don't give a fuck, especially when it comes to actual medical disorders. Even most of conservatives would support a passing gay tranny like Blaire White using the women's bathroom. The bathroom isn't "mislabeled", it's the bathroom for males and it causes social issues when it appears that someone is breaking the rules, and bathrooms aren't dangerous, but sending someone with CAIS to for example, a men's prison, would be insane. Do you really need the reason why explained to you?

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

She wasn't 100% XY

That's right. She had some cells that were X. And a very few that were XX.

It happens. Sometimes you lose a sex chromosome in mitosis, because of their uniquely complicated biochemistry.

you literally can not have anything other than XX xor XY (except for Turner's Syndrome which is just X) without being a chimera because the gametes only hold one sex chromosome.

Plenty of people are other than XX or XY.

XXY and XYY are the most common that live.

Not even the most rabid conservatives would argue that people with CAIS should be pissing in the men's.

They would argue that they're women, because they were assigned woman at birth.

but sending someone with CAIS to for example, a men's prison, would be insane.

So socially and legally they're a woman?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Plenty of people are other than XX or XY.

XXY and XYY are the most common that live.

Yeah and they're all chimeras.

They would argue that they're women, because they were assigned woman at birth.

You don't know what you're talking about which is surprising considering how much time you spend here with said rabid conservatives. Must not be doing enough listening. And fun fact: the term "assigning a gender at birth" originally meant and still means (despite the broad-scale co-option) performing surgery on an infant with ambiguous genitals. Now everyone likes to pretend they were "assigned" a gender just because a doctor looked at them and observed their sex.

So socially and legally they're a woman?

Definitely legally. But they're still different.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yeah and they're all chimeras

No. XXY and XYY aren't chimeras. They're humans with one DNA but it has an extra sex chromosome.

Definitely legally. But they're still different.

So they're legally a woman ... But they're a man, but not legally?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Fun fact: chimeras... are humans... with human DNA. They're people who start as twins and then early in development, they fuse into one person.

So they're legally a woman ... But they're a man, but not legally?

I don't get hung up on whether people with DSDs are "a woman" or "a man". Excluding chimeras, they are biologically male or (XOR - exclusive or) female. I don't see any reason why people with CAIS should legally be considered male when I think about all the legal contexts in which sex is relevant. Doesn't change the fact that they are biologically male.

What are you even objecting to in my argument? The fact that I'm acknowledging that they're males when they are? It's interesting how CAIS and other conditions like it affect human sexual development. Females can have CAIS too, but often there are no symptoms because they are female anyway and their sexual development barely involves androgens. A female with CAIS is XX and develops all their female reproductive organs properly. Is your argument that there's no difference between a female with CAIS and a male with CAIS?

edit: You know what, I'll even concede that in the social sense, SOME male people with DSDs can be considered "women" because of how highly charged that word is with social implications. I don't know enough about female DSDs to say whether any of those people (excluding chimeras / people with fucky chromosomes) could be, at least legally and possibly socially "men". It doesn't matter and I don't care. But biologically they are male or female. Again, these arguments are in reference to people with a typical XX or XY karyotype.

And again, none of this is relevant in a normal social interaction. Only in the contexts of medicine, sex and reproduction, and the law.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Fun fact: chimeras... are humans... with human DNA. They're people who start as twins and then early in development, they fuse into one person.

That's right. A person with one DNA isn't a chimera. And neither is a person with a small some cells that are the same DNA as their others, but with an omitted chromosome.

Doesn't change the fact that they are biologically male.

You're not using a biological definition of male. The biological definition of male for animals is the sex of an organism that produces sperm. (Whether on not they do.)

Is your argument that there's no difference between a female with CAIS and a male with CAIS?

My argument is that "there are only two sexes" is not true, because intersex of many kinds exist.

But biologically they are male or female.

For a weird DNA and not whether you've got a cock matters definition of "male or female".

And even that falls down for unusual DNA.

It doesn't matter and I don't care.

I suspect it matters to them. Which is why we bother to point out that "there are only two sexes" is wrong.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

A person with one DNA isn't a chimera.

This is worded so goofy.

But after doing more reading, a gamete may very rarely carry two sex chromosomes, meaning that people can be XXY, XYY, or XXYY without being chimeras. So okay.

The biological definition of male for animals is the sex of an organism that produces sperm. (Whether on not they do.)

Yes exactly. People with CAIS are modified biological males. They would have produced sperm, did they not have the condition that makes their body not react to androgens. They do not produce ova and never will.

Some biological males such as them can fairly be legally treated as female, but their doctors MUST know they are not so they can treat them accordingly.

Such edge cases are complicated and should be evaluated case-by-case to determine a legal gender.

They vary too widely to be grouped together under a legal "intersex" category, and are too rare to have their own spaces such as prisons.

I suspect it matters to them. Which is why we bother to point out that "there are only two sexes" is wrong.

I'm not sure at this point why you are still arguing because you are only taking an ideological position and not proposing any solutions, which matters a lot more to such people than whatever people call them. Do you have anything meaningful to argue about in terms of how they should be treated, or are you only concerned with defending your talking point?

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes exactly. People with CAIS are modified biological males.

I disagree. They're closer to females. Their genitalia look female, their body shape is more female.

I think you're using the DNA as a definition because you think that that's how you can support the thesis that there is only two sexes: The most reasonable approach given the reality of what we have in reality is to say that most people are male or female, but there is a range: Sex is bimodal not binary.

Such edge cases are complicated and should be evaluated case-by-case to determine a legal gender.

Yep. And in some cases, that evaluation is neither.

Do you have anything meaningful to argue about in terms of how they should be treated, or are you only concerned with defending your talking point?

The claim that "there are only two sexes" denies the existence of intersex people. That is not how they should be treated. At the very least they should be acknowledged.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you have any arguments on what your views should mean practically? I'm tired of arguing semantics.