Thank you, SaidIt...

submitted by Godknight from self.SaidIt

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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

XY gonadal dysgenesis, also known as Swyer syndrome, is a type of hypogonadism in a person whose karyotype is 46,XY. Though they typically have normal female external genitalia, the person has functionless gonads, fibrous tissue termed "streak gonads", and if left untreated, will not experience puberty.

Seems that the case you showed me and other cases of fertility in such cases are due to the people being chimeras. Which means they are part male and part female genetically. There are still two distinct parts.

As u/Vulptex said, "intersex" is a catch-all category for people with disorders of sexual development. For people who literally have some male and some female genes, sure they are essentially part male and part female. That's a very, very small proportion of the people categorized as intersex; usually it's some kind of hormonal disorder.

And again, the person in your study was a combination of both sexes genetically. We can define the sexes chromosomally, but sometimes things go wrong in development or chimeras occur.

it should be noted that the incidence of normal fertile females who have a 46,XY karyotype is not known because it is not routine to check the karyotype in fertile women.

Definitely interesting, but with everyone sending their genes to 23AndMe and related companies, if it was some common thing, we would know.

I wonder if there are any positives to such a condition at all or if they generally tend to be negative and neutral, in which case they'll probably just die out or continue to occasionally spontaneously occur at a very low rate, the way they do now.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Which means they are part male and part female genetically. There are still two distinct parts.

And they, as a person, are not male or female.

And by your definition of XY = male, they may be male, but have a female body and psychology. Which most people would call "female".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

And by your definition of XY = male, they may be male, but have a female body and psychology. Which most people would call "female".

Except they're not 100% XY.

they, as a person, are not male or female.

They are both male and female. Physically, parts of them are male and other parts are female on a cellular level.

Which most people would call "female".

People can call it what they will colloquially. The point is that you're making it some sort of weird, social thing where we need to take offense to what they're called instead of describing them accurately and having an accurate view of what's going on.

I'm not gonna go find some CAIS person and harass them with "YOU'RE A MALE!!! YOU'RE A BIOLOGICAL MALE WITH A DISEASE THAT AFFECTS YOUR REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM!!" no. But they are biologically male and they do have a disease that affects their reproductive system. If they're fine otherwise, then they're fine and we shouldn't go meddling with their bodies if it isn't medically necessary. But it's what they are. And I probably wouldn't even be able to pick out a CAIS person from a crowd anyway so who cares? But I'm not going to sit in the privacy of my own home and mind and pretend to myself that they're female because it's somehow offensive. It's just reality.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Except they're not 100% XY.

Yeah. Swyer Syndrome is XY.

They are both male and female. Physically, parts of them are male and other parts are female on a cellular level.

Yep. So "There are only two sexes" breaks down for them, because they're both.

I'm not gonna go find some CAIS person and harass them with "YOU'RE A MALE!!!"

Should they use the male bathroom?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Yeah. Swyer Syndrome is XY.

The person in the case study you showed me had cells that were X and XX.

Yep. So "There are only two sexes" breaks down for them, because they're both.

If there aren't two sexes how can someone be "both"? You can disagree with me, but at least I'm logically consistent in my wording. Two sexes. If someone is a chimera with the genes of the two sexes, male and female, they are both.

Should they use the male bathroom?

Lol no

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

No X and XY, and not a chimera. The rest of the genes are the same. She (you would say "he"?) didn't get the Y in some 20% of her cells.

If there aren't two sexes how can someone be "both"?

There are two sexes. It's the "only" part in "only two sexes" that makes it not work.

Should they use the male bathroom?

Lol no

So are they mislabelled as "male", or is the bathroom mislabelled as "male"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

No X and XY, and not a chimera.

Yet:

The karyotype of this phenotypically normal mother was 46,XY in blood, 80% 46,XY and 20% 45,X in cultured skin fibroblasts, and 93% 46,XY, 6% 45,X, and <1% 46,XX in the ovary.

She wasn't 100% XY and you literally can not have anything other than XX xor XY (except for Turner's Syndrome which is just X) without being a chimera because the gametes only hold one sex chromosome.

She (you would say "he"?) didn't get the Y in some 20% of her cells.

My question to you is why are you obsessed with what pronoun I would use, what bathroom they should use? Prescribing all these random beliefs to me. Those things are so inconsequential in the grand scheme. If I saw this person in public, based off of that body picture, I would probably say "she". Are you objecting to that? Because that would be extremely inconsistent of you.

There are two sexes. It's the "only" part in "only two sexes" that makes it not work.

I feel like this argument is meaningless and you're only choosing this hill to die on because you think my rhetoric encourages genociding these people or something. When humans evolve a new sex category that is definitively different from XX or XY and are actually fertile at significant rates (probably not in my lifetime), I'll change my tune. There are two sex categories and some disorders cause people to not sexually develop properly. They usually have other health problems and are rarely fertile. And that's sort of the entire point of having sex categories: their roles in reproduction.

So are they mislabelled as "male", or is the bathroom mislabelled as "male"?

They're male but most would assume they're female and I'm not a lunatic who's going to chromosome test every mfer who needs to take a piss. Not even the most rabid conservatives would argue that people with CAIS should be pissing in the men's. The only people who really care about bathrooms anyway are aggrieved straight women who hate it when non-passing heterosexual trannies go in the women's. Most people don't give a fuck, especially when it comes to actual medical disorders. Even most of conservatives would support a passing gay tranny like Blaire White using the women's bathroom. The bathroom isn't "mislabeled", it's the bathroom for males and it causes social issues when it appears that someone is breaking the rules, and bathrooms aren't dangerous, but sending someone with CAIS to for example, a men's prison, would be insane. Do you really need the reason why explained to you?

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

She wasn't 100% XY

That's right. She had some cells that were X. And a very few that were XX.

It happens. Sometimes you lose a sex chromosome in mitosis, because of their uniquely complicated biochemistry.

you literally can not have anything other than XX xor XY (except for Turner's Syndrome which is just X) without being a chimera because the gametes only hold one sex chromosome.

Plenty of people are other than XX or XY.

XXY and XYY are the most common that live.

Not even the most rabid conservatives would argue that people with CAIS should be pissing in the men's.

They would argue that they're women, because they were assigned woman at birth.

but sending someone with CAIS to for example, a men's prison, would be insane.

So socially and legally they're a woman?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Plenty of people are other than XX or XY.

XXY and XYY are the most common that live.

Yeah and they're all chimeras.

They would argue that they're women, because they were assigned woman at birth.

You don't know what you're talking about which is surprising considering how much time you spend here with said rabid conservatives. Must not be doing enough listening. And fun fact: the term "assigning a gender at birth" originally meant and still means (despite the broad-scale co-option) performing surgery on an infant with ambiguous genitals. Now everyone likes to pretend they were "assigned" a gender just because a doctor looked at them and observed their sex.

So socially and legally they're a woman?

Definitely legally. But they're still different.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yeah and they're all chimeras

No. XXY and XYY aren't chimeras. They're humans with one DNA but it has an extra sex chromosome.

Definitely legally. But they're still different.

So they're legally a woman ... But they're a man, but not legally?