Thank you, SaidIt...

submitted by Godknight from self.SaidIt

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[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

There are a couple of disorders that will make an XY genotype develop into an unambiguous woman.

How do you wedge that into your world view?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

How is a person with CAIS who is completely sterile, produces no body hair and almost no body oil or sweat, has no female internal organs and usually not even any internal genitals, an "unambiguous woman"?

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Swyer Syndrome have normal body hair, normal female external genitalia, normal uterus, and are assigned female at birth, because there's no ambiguity in the genitalia. They usually find out they they're XY due to delayed puberty.

CAIS women have little public hair but develop normal breasts at puberty have a vagina but no uterus.

Normally diagnosed when they have trouble getting pregnant.

They're unambiguously women, because they have all the external primary and secondary sexual characteristics of a woman, and none of those of a man.

Sometimes they're fertile:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190741/

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

XY gonadal dysgenesis, also known as Swyer syndrome, is a type of hypogonadism in a person whose karyotype is 46,XY. Though they typically have normal female external genitalia, the person has functionless gonads, fibrous tissue termed "streak gonads", and if left untreated, will not experience puberty.

Seems that the case you showed me and other cases of fertility in such cases are due to the people being chimeras. Which means they are part male and part female genetically. There are still two distinct parts.

As u/Vulptex said, "intersex" is a catch-all category for people with disorders of sexual development. For people who literally have some male and some female genes, sure they are essentially part male and part female. That's a very, very small proportion of the people categorized as intersex; usually it's some kind of hormonal disorder.

And again, the person in your study was a combination of both sexes genetically. We can define the sexes chromosomally, but sometimes things go wrong in development or chimeras occur.

it should be noted that the incidence of normal fertile females who have a 46,XY karyotype is not known because it is not routine to check the karyotype in fertile women.

Definitely interesting, but with everyone sending their genes to 23AndMe and related companies, if it was some common thing, we would know.

I wonder if there are any positives to such a condition at all or if they generally tend to be negative and neutral, in which case they'll probably just die out or continue to occasionally spontaneously occur at a very low rate, the way they do now.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Which means they are part male and part female genetically. There are still two distinct parts.

And they, as a person, are not male or female.

And by your definition of XY = male, they may be male, but have a female body and psychology. Which most people would call "female".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

And by your definition of XY = male, they may be male, but have a female body and psychology. Which most people would call "female".

Except they're not 100% XY.

they, as a person, are not male or female.

They are both male and female. Physically, parts of them are male and other parts are female on a cellular level.

Which most people would call "female".

People can call it what they will colloquially. The point is that you're making it some sort of weird, social thing where we need to take offense to what they're called instead of describing them accurately and having an accurate view of what's going on.

I'm not gonna go find some CAIS person and harass them with "YOU'RE A MALE!!! YOU'RE A BIOLOGICAL MALE WITH A DISEASE THAT AFFECTS YOUR REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM!!" no. But they are biologically male and they do have a disease that affects their reproductive system. If they're fine otherwise, then they're fine and we shouldn't go meddling with their bodies if it isn't medically necessary. But it's what they are. And I probably wouldn't even be able to pick out a CAIS person from a crowd anyway so who cares? But I'm not going to sit in the privacy of my own home and mind and pretend to myself that they're female because it's somehow offensive. It's just reality.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Except they're not 100% XY.

Yeah. Swyer Syndrome is XY.

They are both male and female. Physically, parts of them are male and other parts are female on a cellular level.

Yep. So "There are only two sexes" breaks down for them, because they're both.

I'm not gonna go find some CAIS person and harass them with "YOU'RE A MALE!!!"

Should they use the male bathroom?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Yeah. Swyer Syndrome is XY.

The person in the case study you showed me had cells that were X and XX.

Yep. So "There are only two sexes" breaks down for them, because they're both.

If there aren't two sexes how can someone be "both"? You can disagree with me, but at least I'm logically consistent in my wording. Two sexes. If someone is a chimera with the genes of the two sexes, male and female, they are both.

Should they use the male bathroom?

Lol no

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

No X and XY, and not a chimera. The rest of the genes are the same. She (you would say "he"?) didn't get the Y in some 20% of her cells.

If there aren't two sexes how can someone be "both"?

There are two sexes. It's the "only" part in "only two sexes" that makes it not work.

Should they use the male bathroom?

Lol no

So are they mislabelled as "male", or is the bathroom mislabelled as "male"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

No X and XY, and not a chimera.

Yet:

The karyotype of this phenotypically normal mother was 46,XY in blood, 80% 46,XY and 20% 45,X in cultured skin fibroblasts, and 93% 46,XY, 6% 45,X, and <1% 46,XX in the ovary.

She wasn't 100% XY and you literally can not have anything other than XX xor XY (except for Turner's Syndrome which is just X) without being a chimera because the gametes only hold one sex chromosome.

She (you would say "he"?) didn't get the Y in some 20% of her cells.

My question to you is why are you obsessed with what pronoun I would use, what bathroom they should use? Prescribing all these random beliefs to me. Those things are so inconsequential in the grand scheme. If I saw this person in public, based off of that body picture, I would probably say "she". Are you objecting to that? Because that would be extremely inconsistent of you.

There are two sexes. It's the "only" part in "only two sexes" that makes it not work.

I feel like this argument is meaningless and you're only choosing this hill to die on because you think my rhetoric encourages genociding these people or something. When humans evolve a new sex category that is definitively different from XX or XY and are actually fertile at significant rates (probably not in my lifetime), I'll change my tune. There are two sex categories and some disorders cause people to not sexually develop properly. They usually have other health problems and are rarely fertile. And that's sort of the entire point of having sex categories: their roles in reproduction.

So are they mislabelled as "male", or is the bathroom mislabelled as "male"?

They're male but most would assume they're female and I'm not a lunatic who's going to chromosome test every mfer who needs to take a piss. Not even the most rabid conservatives would argue that people with CAIS should be pissing in the men's. The only people who really care about bathrooms anyway are aggrieved straight women who hate it when non-passing heterosexual trannies go in the women's. Most people don't give a fuck, especially when it comes to actual medical disorders. Even most of conservatives would support a passing gay tranny like Blaire White using the women's bathroom. The bathroom isn't "mislabeled", it's the bathroom for males and it causes social issues when it appears that someone is breaking the rules, and bathrooms aren't dangerous, but sending someone with CAIS to for example, a men's prison, would be insane. Do you really need the reason why explained to you?

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Being an XY female would be the best. Female but without periods and other annoying sexual functions. Not even having to experience puberty at all.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I'm very curious about whether such people have any sex drive at all.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Probably not. Which also isn't a bad thing.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Why not? It's fun and it keeps the human race going by facilitating bonding and/or reproduction. Though in fairness we really need to breed less and reduce the population, but our population reaching zero would be bad.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's fun for a few minutes at best, and then it's distracting and irritating. Plus being horny makes you do some really stupid things. And it comes at the price of destroying the rest of your body and even impairing your mind. The ability to orgasm and make seed was definitely not worth sacrificing my entire wellbeing. Of course maybe it's no problem for everyone else because they can't remember any of their childhoods for some reason.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

[Being horny] comes at the price of destroying the rest of your body and even impairing your mind.

How?

maybe it's no problem for everyone else because they can't remember any of their childhoods for some reason.

What does this mean? Getting horny fucked up your childhood? :/