Thank you, SaidIt...

submitted by Godknight from self.SaidIt

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[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (31 children)

In terms of legal categories of sexes, intersex is a third sex

In terms of biology I would disagree. Every human either has the male sex chromosome or does not. An 'intersex' individual with XXY still has the male chromosome, and would still be a male

[–]dicknipples 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes - they are normally identified as male at birth, unless for some reason surgery to remove the twig & berries is arranged early on, in cases where the child is considered more female than male in a wealthy country that can offer that surgery (eg. examples in the US).

Chromosomal differences aren't the only factors to consider. Congenital adrenal hyperplasia causes developments across the Prader scale and/or Quigley scale. It's why you'd want to keep your Phall-O-Meter nearby when determining a baby's sex. (It's a joke, but hopefully you get my meaning.)

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, thats true, chromosomal sex can be a mismatch with the sexual development of genitals. I suppose I can accept this definition of intersex: having intersex characteristics, i.e. male genital expression or elevated testosterone without the male chromosome or vice versa. We still can't consider them women for purposes of fairness in sports if they have elevated Testosterone, and women have an expectation of no penises in the ladies room, even if they chromosomally are female, so yeah I see the value of this category

[–]dicknipples 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In my view all intersex people should compete only with similar intersex people in sports, in the same manner that differently abled people compete with one another in the special olympics. There are too many cases where women have worked all their lives to compete at the highest levels only to lose to intersex men. It's so unfair and unethical, I am surprised and disgusted that anyone supported it. The concerns of a few intersex men who are somehow also women do not outweigh the rights of the entire field of women.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

There are a couple of disorders that will make an XY genotype develop into an unambiguous woman.

How do you wedge that into your world view?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

How is a person with CAIS who is completely sterile, produces no body hair and almost no body oil or sweat, has no female internal organs and usually not even any internal genitals, an "unambiguous woman"?

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

Swyer Syndrome have normal body hair, normal female external genitalia, normal uterus, and are assigned female at birth, because there's no ambiguity in the genitalia. They usually find out they they're XY due to delayed puberty.

CAIS women have little public hair but develop normal breasts at puberty have a vagina but no uterus.

Normally diagnosed when they have trouble getting pregnant.

They're unambiguously women, because they have all the external primary and secondary sexual characteristics of a woman, and none of those of a man.

Sometimes they're fertile:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190741/

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

XY gonadal dysgenesis, also known as Swyer syndrome, is a type of hypogonadism in a person whose karyotype is 46,XY. Though they typically have normal female external genitalia, the person has functionless gonads, fibrous tissue termed "streak gonads", and if left untreated, will not experience puberty.

Seems that the case you showed me and other cases of fertility in such cases are due to the people being chimeras. Which means they are part male and part female genetically. There are still two distinct parts.

As u/Vulptex said, "intersex" is a catch-all category for people with disorders of sexual development. For people who literally have some male and some female genes, sure they are essentially part male and part female. That's a very, very small proportion of the people categorized as intersex; usually it's some kind of hormonal disorder.

And again, the person in your study was a combination of both sexes genetically. We can define the sexes chromosomally, but sometimes things go wrong in development or chimeras occur.

it should be noted that the incidence of normal fertile females who have a 46,XY karyotype is not known because it is not routine to check the karyotype in fertile women.

Definitely interesting, but with everyone sending their genes to 23AndMe and related companies, if it was some common thing, we would know.

I wonder if there are any positives to such a condition at all or if they generally tend to be negative and neutral, in which case they'll probably just die out or continue to occasionally spontaneously occur at a very low rate, the way they do now.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Which means they are part male and part female genetically. There are still two distinct parts.

And they, as a person, are not male or female.

And by your definition of XY = male, they may be male, but have a female body and psychology. Which most people would call "female".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

And by your definition of XY = male, they may be male, but have a female body and psychology. Which most people would call "female".

Except they're not 100% XY.

they, as a person, are not male or female.

They are both male and female. Physically, parts of them are male and other parts are female on a cellular level.

Which most people would call "female".

People can call it what they will colloquially. The point is that you're making it some sort of weird, social thing where we need to take offense to what they're called instead of describing them accurately and having an accurate view of what's going on.

I'm not gonna go find some CAIS person and harass them with "YOU'RE A MALE!!! YOU'RE A BIOLOGICAL MALE WITH A DISEASE THAT AFFECTS YOUR REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM!!" no. But they are biologically male and they do have a disease that affects their reproductive system. If they're fine otherwise, then they're fine and we shouldn't go meddling with their bodies if it isn't medically necessary. But it's what they are. And I probably wouldn't even be able to pick out a CAIS person from a crowd anyway so who cares? But I'm not going to sit in the privacy of my own home and mind and pretend to myself that they're female because it's somehow offensive. It's just reality.

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Except they're not 100% XY.

Yeah. Swyer Syndrome is XY.

They are both male and female. Physically, parts of them are male and other parts are female on a cellular level.

Yep. So "There are only two sexes" breaks down for them, because they're both.

I'm not gonna go find some CAIS person and harass them with "YOU'RE A MALE!!!"

Should they use the male bathroom?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Yeah. Swyer Syndrome is XY.

The person in the case study you showed me had cells that were X and XX.

Yep. So "There are only two sexes" breaks down for them, because they're both.

If there aren't two sexes how can someone be "both"? You can disagree with me, but at least I'm logically consistent in my wording. Two sexes. If someone is a chimera with the genes of the two sexes, male and female, they are both.

Should they use the male bathroom?

Lol no

[–]ActuallyNot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

No X and XY, and not a chimera. The rest of the genes are the same. She (you would say "he"?) didn't get the Y in some 20% of her cells.

If there aren't two sexes how can someone be "both"?

There are two sexes. It's the "only" part in "only two sexes" that makes it not work.

Should they use the male bathroom?

Lol no

So are they mislabelled as "male", or is the bathroom mislabelled as "male"?

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Being an XY female would be the best. Female but without periods and other annoying sexual functions. Not even having to experience puberty at all.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I'm very curious about whether such people have any sex drive at all.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Probably not. Which also isn't a bad thing.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Why not? It's fun and it keeps the human race going by facilitating bonding and/or reproduction. Though in fairness we really need to breed less and reduce the population, but our population reaching zero would be bad.

[–]Vulptex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's fun for a few minutes at best, and then it's distracting and irritating. Plus being horny makes you do some really stupid things. And it comes at the price of destroying the rest of your body and even impairing your mind. The ability to orgasm and make seed was definitely not worth sacrificing my entire wellbeing. Of course maybe it's no problem for everyone else because they can't remember any of their childhoods for some reason.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There are a couple of disorders that will make an XY genotype develop into an unambiguous woman.

How do you wedge that into your world view?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

There are a couple of disorders that will make an XY genotype develop into an unambiguous woman.

How do you wedge that into your world view?

According to biological science a human with an XY genotype is male. Biological sex is determined by chromosomes, not genitals. From a social standpoint, I would accept the 'intersex' definition, as I would recognize that despite their genotype, they have characteristics we normally associate with the other sex such as hormone levels or genitals (note, I did not say 'defined by' these other characteristics). that might make it inappropriate to categorize them as their genetic sex in a society where separation of sexes in sports and changing rooms is generally agreed to be a desirable thing for reasons that have to do with hormones and genitals rather than chromosomes and biological definitions