Decentralizing SaidIt

submitted by JasonCarswell from infogalactic.com

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[–]wizzwizz4 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

I don't see why SaidIt can't just implement an ActivityPub dialect. That ticks all of the boxes, apart from "proof of voting" (subs or whatever unit the decentralisation is in will be able to commit voting fraud) but the existing implementation doesn't do that either.

Plus, it won't have the downsides of blockchain (including, but not limited to, easy 51% attacks by rich people).

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I don't recall how much I knew about PeerTube before coming to SaidIt just over a month ago. I know there are some sketchy looking Tubes out there. After being here I learned about PeerTube, ActivityPub, Mastodon, and the Fediverse - all wonderful things blazing new trails into Decentralized Web territory. Beyond that I know squat.

That said, I don't know if wizzwizz4's ideas is good or bad or what. But it made me consider something that I wonder if anyone here has really deeply profoundly considered...

I know you've put lots of blood sweat and tears into this open source SaidIt fork - but how married are you to it? Really.

Let's say that there was some other decentralized platform upon which you could build a SaidIt/Reddit type GUI with most of the original functionality with some new interface adjustments to get used to, etc. plus lots of potential for much more cross app pollination with a broader coder pool to lean on, etc etc etc - Are you prepared to give up this fork? Naturally some script might be needed to go through the entire history of SaidIt thus far to copy/paste every single sub, post, comment, vote and second vote thus far with their time stamps - to make a perfect content transition - and I'm guessing new phone apps would be called for.

/u/magnora7 , /u/d3rr - Have you really considered this?

Ooof. It's exciting and terrifying all at once, and I've only been here a month.

Redditers expect a certain format to be sure. Though more flexibility and options might be nice I'm not proposing we change what's on the menu but maybe the little kitchen over there gets closed down while that wing over there takes over as gourmet central where all the consumables are prepared, including the classic favourites.

That site map might come in handy. I don't even begin to know how you'd transition. Like a light switch on/off? Or with a SaidIt Jr that starts out with one sub, somehow embedded within SaidIt Sr, and you keep feeding junior until it just takes over?

To boldly go where no man has gone before...

Or have they?

This brings me to my second epiphany. Instead of thinking how can we port our SaidIt thingy onto this or that other platform - why don't we reach out to the platforms - ie. ActivityPub on the Fediverse, IPFS, and Holochain - to ask them to collaborate together to create some common ground so that a SaidIt "franchise" of GUIs in different locations can be built on each decentralized web platform and shared - as well as the core shared database and files and stuff - perhaps shared over different networks - ie. IPFS, Bitttorrent, WebTorrent, HTTPS, FTP, ZeroNet, etc.

I've watched some of the IPFS shows where you have a bunch of talking heads with their monthly meeting geeking out talking all Geek to me and it's fascinating. I keep hoping to learn through osmosis. I'm not saying you have to, but I think it'd be really kewl if you could record meetings like that as you reach out to make first contact, maybe starting with interviews with their PR guys or whatever - then posted them on your YouTube channel. This may also inspire them more to bridge back towards SaidIt and make that extra effort to help port us successfully.

Or maybe I'm just talkin out my ass.

[–]wizzwizz4 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

We can keep the existing Saidit API, like Mastodon has a Mastodon API. Then the app will still work. The backend database can also remain the same, probably; I haven't looked at it, so I can't tell for certain.

All that needs to happen is that Saidit implements an ActivityPub-like API for communication between different "sites", and a new row is introduced to the database mark certain content as non-canonical (i.e. doesn't "live" there) and a few other database adjustments to account for the user table not living in one place (which would all have to happen anyway for decentralisation) and presto! We've got ourselves a distributed Saidit. Apart from brief periods where the database schema changes and the site goes down (after LOTS of testing on a test site), there'd be no downtime. We ordinary users wouldn't even notice!

(ActivityPub, by the way, doesn't have a community behind it. Not really. That's like saying HTTP has a community behind it. Sure, we all use it, but that's not our community identity; it's just a way of sending information from Point A to Point B.)

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Very interesting.

I take it ActivityPub has already worked out the kinks of having decentralized sources and negotiating the database build like negotiating building the blocks of a blockchain?

I didn't mean community in that sense. I mean that there are a lot more folks who can code HTML than know how to code for an open source Reddit fork. I'm guessing there may be more folks using ActivityPub and willing to share their expertise on it compared to SaidIt's two code-monkeys : magnora7 and d3rr.

[–]wizzwizz4 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

I take it ActivityPub has already worked out the kinks of having decentralized sources

Yup.

and negotiating the database build

It doesn't actually cover this; it's purely a communication protocol with objects (e.g. post, comment) and verbs (e.g. insightful, funny, create (post / reply)). You can make your own verbs, which Insightful and Funny would be.

I've just asked some people on Fosstodon whether they'd want to help… not that many people would see that post.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

And more emoticons/votes? I'd like to see more options. But I'm overwhelmed by the emoticons on YouTube and Discord - almost an identical set of endless crap.

Very kewl link. Ima gonna join.

Maybe post a link back to this discussion so they see what we're talking about and what Saidit is all about.

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I actually found Saidit from Fosstodon, interestingly enough.

(Note that Fosstodon is only one part of Mastodon.)

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Where? I'm sure /u/magnora7 would be interested to know that if you haven't shared that with him already.

I joined up. Any tips? Any favourites? Is it a big timesuck? I'm not sure I need another distraction right now. And yet I'm curious on many levels. I'm afraid to look/explore and be pulled in.

[–]magnora7 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is cool we've gotten people from Mastodon!

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It's not a big timesuck; it's good for social mediaing with friends though!

Don't be too offended that I haven't followed you back, though; I don't want to fill up my feed with lots of stuff I don't care about. Only close friends' messages and post tags, or it would become a timesuck like Twitter.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

No worries. I don't know how much time I'll spend there. I don't do much social media stuff, the last two months excepted. I intend to be distracted for a little while longer before focusing on my own projects.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm certainly not married to the codebase, and maybe decentralizing would involve switching to a new code base. With a small team adopting something is way easier and quicker than writing something from scratch. I also like the federated/Activity Pub approach wizzwizz4 laid out, adding the federation bits to the existing code base.

If it takes us a year to start working on this, some new platforms will likely become available or mature enough to adopt.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't see why not either. This approach is straightforward and successfully in use elsewhere. Thanks for your commentary on this stuff.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

This much I know. Rich people won't be able to get 51% of a custom blockchain unless it's offered to them. Even if they hire all the mining farms in China, they still won't get it if that's not how it's designed.

[–]wizzwizz4 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

For a big currency like Bitcoin, they won't. For a hard fork of Ethereum? Easy.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

To clarify, you said "blockchain" which can be used for a lot of non-currency purposes.

If you're talking strictly about currencies, than I'd generally agree. It might be possible to develop currencies that are less easy to buy into. I don't trust Steemit but they do have some weird things going on good and bad with their three tolken systems - in part to stop a bank run. The best thing about them and Filecoin are that you can earn them.

I don't know how practical a closed system might be but it's something to think about.

[–]wizzwizz4 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Blockchains with POW are all susceptible to 51% attacks, no matter whether they're currency-based.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I suppose folks like Steemit manage their proof of work problems by not opening up their proof of work process to submission, much less publishing them publicly, besides on their website apparently somehow.

The nice thing about it is that the work is there and could potentially be reversed in an archival situation, unlike a currency where some transactions might not be.

If you don't openly offer access to just anyone then that would decrease the risks. Figuring out the system for the circle of trust is a whole other can of worms.

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Doesn't that defeat the whole point of decentralisation? There's still a central authority controlling content in your case.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Depends. You still have moderators and admins for decentralized things right?

If one person is controlling something on a thousand machines - is that decentralized or not? Yes it's on several boxes but no if you mean it's got a gatekeeper.

One domain name, ie. SaidIt.net may be hosted by one server or many. Maybe folks who prove their moxy earn the right to co-host. This might keep the bots and trolls and impatient infiltrators at bay.

[–]wizzwizz4 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

One domain name, i.e. SaidIt.net may be hosted by one server or many.

But there's only one entity in charge of it. One entity that says who stays, who goes, who's in that group...

If many subs are on different domains (you can access all subs through all domains with the accessor's authentication, but their "home" locations are on different domains) like Mastodon does it, that's decentralised enough whilst still allowing moderation by the sub owners.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Now I'm a little confused.