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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Beijing only started this stuff about a decade ago, while the US left has hated America pretty much since there's ever been a US left.

The left allied themselves with the PRC during the Vietnam war, and slowly lost autonomy as the Chinese Communists figured out they could easily manipulate American leftists. There's a portion of the left that was never subjugated by the CCP, but most of them are mere puppets at this point.

I disagree that the left has always hated America, since Theodore Roosevelt (considered far-right today) was a left-wing Nationalist who did wonders for America and the Working-class. There's also Huey Long, another left-wing Nationalist — although the contemporary left likes to pretend he was a Fascist. Other than those two, I can't think of anyone else on the left who loved America.

Besides, Beijing isn't trying to destroy America. That's not how they operate. They want to co-opt our elites to serve them instead of the American people.

Subjugation is destruction! America will wither and die, if we don't seize her back from the reigns of the enemy! Nationalism or death! Victory or defeat! There is no other option!

[–]Chipit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

The left allied themselves with the PRC during the Vietnam war, and slowly lost autonomy as the Chinese Communists figured out they could easily manipulate American leftists.

OK the Chinese were going through the Cultural Revolution at the time and had little inclination for foreign adventures. The US left at the time was Soviet, only a few were Maoist. Frankly, China was poor as fuck and had not the money to fund leftists in foreign countries like the Soviets did.

The CPC was never a factor in US politics until Bill Clinton's campaign in 1996 illegally accepted campaign donations, and won because of it. He had to pay them back, so took the lead in putting them into the WTO. That's when this nightmare started. They should never have been allowed in before democratizing. But, Blowjob Bill had a debt to pay and the corporate Democrats stood to make a mint.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

OK the Chinese were going through the Cultural Revolution at the time and had little inclination for foreign adventures.

That's why it took a while for them to actually seize control of the US left, rather than just being aided by them.

The US left at the time was Soviet, only a few were Maoist.

Yes, but these Soviets would eventually side with the PRC after the fall of the USSR.

Frankly, China was poor as fuck and had not the money to fund leftists in foreign countries like the Soviets did.

Another reason it took them decades .

The CPC was never a factor in US politics until Bill Clinton's campaign in 1996 illegally accepted campaign donations, and won because of it.

Yet another reason to vote for Ross Perot...

That's when this nightmare started.

Yes, that's when they seized control of the left, but the left had been aiding the PRC without much reciprocation for decades by that point. They handed them Vietnam and half of Korea, after all.

They should never have been allowed in before democratizing.

They should'a never been allowed in, period! The People's Republic of China is an illegitimate government; the Republic of China should'a been given that seat.

[–]InvoluntaryHalibut 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The CCP and the Bolsheviks were founded by the same people. The CCP was initially funded and trained by the Soviet Comintern. The same gang was also funding all the anti-vietnam propaganda being pushed in the popular culture of the 60s partly to undermine the war effort. The real cabal behind communism are people who hate nationhood. They want a post national world and they despise national cultures. They are always against traditional morality. They want a post national, post moral world bureacracy that they can control. They dont really care about china, its a means to an end. These are the people that run this country. They may appease china but they dont take orders from them.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's pretty much what I mean, but said a lot better.

[–]InvoluntaryHalibut 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay, I just thought that you focused alot on China but I dont think they are pulling the strings.

[–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Yes, but these Soviets would eventually side with the PRC after the fall of the USSR.

I've never heard of this one. Do you have a source?

The People's Republic of China is an illegitimate government; the Republic of China should'a been given that seat.

Oh come on. The ROC was a horrible government. Why do you think the Chinese people actually welcomed the communists? Because they were better than the ROC. You have a really weird view of history.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I've never heard of this one. Do you have a source?

They're Communists; it's safe to assume they'd align themselves with a Communist country, at least for the most party. I don't know how you'd even source that... poll every single Communist in the US?

The PSL, the largest Communist Party in the US, for example: believes the Tiananmen massacre never happened, and promotes a lot of other CCP propaganda. The CPUSA, which is pretty much dead at this point, officially recognized the CCP as an ally.

A notable exception is the Socialist Worker's Party, which criticized the PRC for supporting the military coup in Myanmar. The criticism stems largely from their assertion that Beijing ain't far enough left, but they seem to be much more libertarian than the PSL.

Regardless of what they think, all leftists (and right-wingers too) support Beijing by pushing for destructive policies that will make America weak, during a time when strength is vital to our Nation's survival.

The ROC was a horrible government.

That's true, but it's a lot better now than it was then. It's a Democracy now — and a hell of a lot better than the US. They have two extra branches of government to deal with corruption and incompetence, meanwhile our government is defined by such issues.

Why do you think the Chinese people actually welcomed the communists?

They didn't "welcome" the Communists, they won a civil war because the US refused to throw its full support behind the ROC. Now, I'm usually pretty isolationist, but Communism is a global epidemic affecting every Nation on Earth — an evil ideology that seeks to destroy our very borders — and must be entirely eradicated.

Because they were better than the ROC.

Mao's "Great Leap Forward" alone killed more people than the Nazis — including the holocaust! Around thirty-eight million people died — that's more than even the Black Plague! The entire ideology of Communism? Nearly one-hundred-fifty million; there's a reason we call it the "Red Plague."

I'd prefer a Nationalist dictatorship over a Communist dictatorship. I won't personally support either, but I'd prefer the former.

[–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

They're Communists; it's safe to assume they'd align themselves with a Communist country, at least for the most party.

That's just not true. There are all kinds of communists, and they fight among each other all the time. You've heard of the Krondstadt Rebellion?

They didn't "welcome" the Communists, they won a civil war because the US refused to throw its full support behind the ROC.

Yeah they did. The ROC was so horrible that the communists were actually an improvement. You don't know the history, I can tell.

Mao's "Great Leap Forward" alone killed more people than the Nazis

Which happened long after the communist takeover. You're very kind but you're out of your depth here.

[–][deleted]  (4 children)

[deleted]

    [–]Chipit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Communism is never an improvement! It pretends to be, but it ain't. The CCP only introduced more problems for the Chinese Nation; it solved very few. It's a dangerous ideology that's killed millions, and brought dozens of Nations to their knees, all so some dictator can live in luxury at the expense of his People.

    You simply don't know what the situation was like in China during the civil war. The ROC were their own worst enemies. One side steals your food and puts your son in the military, where he is promptly killed by incompetent officers. The other says they'll put a stop to this all and give you your own land.

    Chiang Kai-Shek was better than Mao Zedong; Alexander Kolchak was better than Joseph Stalin;

    The Kolchak forces looted and killed the people. The Whites were awful, which is why they lost. I'm not arguing in favor of communism, I'm pointing out that these anti-communist forces that the communists defeated were absolutely horrible, as any study of history will show.

    That's fair, but the whole point of bringing that up was to convince me the PRC was better than the ROC.

    During the civil war, yes. Moreover the ROC weren't exactly nice on Taiwan either. They didn't get democracy until what, the late 80s?

    Look, I hate commies too but you have to understand where they came from.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      True, yet the Soviets managed to be worse, by looting and killing people for decades. Ever heard of the Holodomor?

      Do you understand how this came decades later? How are peasants supposed to have a crystal ball?

      Yes, but they weren't worse. They weren't better by a lot, but they where still better.

      Absolutely they were worse. The Kolchak forces were little better than bandits.

      I just disagree that Communism can be better than Nationalism.

      That's not what I'm arguing. The Whites that fought the Reds were their own worst enemies. They looted, burned, and murdered the people they were supposed to be protecting. I looked into this and after I got an education, I wasn't surprised why the communists won again and again.

      Here's a good video that's right up your alley. The first 15 minutes or so are great. Especially the part about sell the dream and service the nightmare. I think it'll help you understand my point better. https://youtu.be/b5HZvOSvLzM

      At the heart of communist and communistic thought is faith in a kind of historical trajectory toward utopia that's driven by social alchemy. There are many reasons why this fails in practice, but the simplest thing to say is that communism fails because communism doesn't know how communism will succeed. The fundamental belief driving communists is that once enough people become true believers that the communist utopia lies on the other side of certain social changes, a perfect society will manifest. How? Because they will. The details aren't meant to be known or told; they're meant to be figured out.

      James Lindsay is awesome.