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[–]joeytundra 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

Here is another special gay rights piece of history. So let me ask you...who sent you? Are you here to be the narcissistic abusive hounder of the women that have been cancelled on reddit? Are you a soyboy?? You don't like women? Let us have them then. You can go cry in another man's arms just like this link wants you to do.

Written by a gay male activist

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/pwh/swift1.asp

This essay is an outré, madness, a tragic, cruel fantasy, an eruption of inner rage, on how the oppressed desperately dream of being the oppressor.

We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of your shallow dreams and vulgar lies. We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms, in your sports arenas, in your seminaries, in your youth groups, in your movie theater bathrooms, in your army bunkhouses, in your truck stops, in your all male clubs, in your houses of Congress, wherever men are with men together. Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding. They will be recast in our image. They will come to crave and adore us.

Women, you cry for freedom. You say you are no longer satisfied with men; they make you unhappy. We, connoisseurs of the masculine face, the masculine physique, shall take your men from you then. We will amuse them; we will instruct them; we will embrace them when they weep. Women, you say you wish to live with each other instead of with men. Then go and be with each other. We shall give your men pleasures they have never known because we are foremost men too, and only one man knows how to truly please another man; only one man can understand the depth and feeling, the mind and body of another man.

All laws banning homosexual activity will be revoked. Instead, legislation shall be passed which engenders love between men.

All homosexuals must stand together as brothers; we must be united artistically, philosophically, socially, politically and financially. We will triumph only when we present a common face to the vicious heterosexual enemy.

If you dare to cry faggot, fairy, queer, at us, we will stab you in your cowardly hearts and defile your dead, puny bodies.

We shall write poems of the love between men; we shall stage plays in which man openly caresses man; we shall make films about the love between heroic men which will replace the cheap, superficial, sentimental, insipid, juvenile, heterosexual infatuations presently dominating your cinema screens. We shall sculpt statues of beautiful young men, of bold athletes which will be placed in your parks, your squares, your plazas. The museums of the world will be filled only with paintings of graceful, naked lads.

Our writers and artists will make love between men fashionable and de rigueur, and we will succeed because we are adept at setting styles. We will eliminate heterosexual liaisons through usage of the devices of wit and ridicule, devices which we are skilled in employing.

We will unmask the powerful homosexuals who masquerade as heterosexuals. You will be shocked and frightened when you find that your presidents and their sons, your industrialists, your senators,your mayors, your generals, your athletes, your film stars, your television personalities, your civic leaders, your priests are not the safe, familiar, bourgeois, heterosexual figures you assumed them to be. We are everywhere; we have infiltrated your ranks. Be careful when you speak of homosexuals because we are always among you; we may be sitting across the desk from you; we may be sleeping in the same bed with you.

There will be no compromises. We are not middle-class weaklings. Highly intelligent, we are the natural aristocrats of the human race, and steely-minded aristocrats never settle for less. Those who oppose us will be exiled.

We shall raise vast private armies, as Mishima did, to defeat you. We shall conquer the world because warriors inspired by and banded together by homosexual love and honor are invincible as were the ancient Greek soldiers.

The family unit-spawning ground of lies, betrayals, mediocrity, hypocrisy and violence--will be abolished. The family unit, which only dampens imagination and curbs free will, must be eliminated. Perfect boys will be conceived and grown in the genetic laboratory. They will be bonded together in communal setting, under the control and instruction of homosexual savants.

All churches who condemn us will be closed. Our only gods are handsome young men. We adhere to a cult of beauty, moral and esthetic. All that is ugly and vulgar and banal will be annihilated. Since we are alienated from middle-class heterosexual conventions, we are free to live our lives according to the dictates of the pure imagination. For us too much is not enough.

The exquisite society to emerge will be governed by an elite comprised of gay poets. One of the major requirements for a position of power in the new society of homoeroticism will be indulgence in the Greek passion. Any man contaminated with heterosexual lust will be automatically barred from a position of influence. All males who insist on remaining stupidly heterosexual will be tried in homosexual courts of justice and will become invisible men.

"We shall rewrite history, history filled and debased with your heterosexual lies and distortions. We shall portray the homosexuality of the great leaders and thinkers who have shaped the world. We will demonstrate that homosexuality and intelligence and imagination are inextricably linked, and that homosexuality is a requirement for true nobility, true beauty in a man.

"We shall be victorious because we are fueled with the ferocious bitterness of the oppressed who have been forced to play seemingly bit parts in your dumb, heterosexual shows throughout the ages. We too are capable of firing guns and manning the barricades of the ultimate revolution.

Tremble, hetero swine, when we appear before you without our masks.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I will ponder the points you are making but I will not replace one kind of identitarianism with another. I will not flee censorship in one place just to run into the same bullshit on the site to counter it.

I would also like to point out the argument you are making "I can see why you were banned": that is the same cowardly sleight of hand employed by the people who control the public debate right now. You know exactly what I was banned for. It says so right there in the message. Is this some admission that this was one of those pretenses people use to shut down freedom of speech?

I think the mask is already slipping. Under the pretense of some noble ideals, other people are censored, but it's actually just the same bullshit in another package. Allegations of hatefulness, hate speech regulation, porn prohibitions, identity politics, censorship -- I knew right away why this place creeped me out and it looks like my intuition was right. This is not a place for freedom of speech, this is just a place to put censorship back into the hands who lost the upper hand.

I came in with the intention to give people the benefit of the doubt, I debated honestly, as you can see from my post history, but now I seriously feel some honest contempt. You are unbelievable hypocrites. If you wanted to debate this topic with me, we could have done so in the appropriate sub, from which I am banned now. So far, that is a mere inconvenience, but I am baffled how people are surprised when the same censorship keeps creeping in from the backdoor whenever they start a new community. You people must either be stupid or malicious.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

SaidIt isn't a free speech platform because of the pyramid of debate rule (lots of influential discourse irl takes places at low-pyramid levels), and because of trying to not be like voat (see admin magnora7's comments in /s/holocaustskepticism). Arguably I shouldn't be here because I'm wary of stuff being censored at all and annoyed that people continue to use sites that are censored... but I don't want to read the pornography and the hostility and the grossness and I haven't gotten around to setting up filters and I ended up back here for the time being.

notabug.io (which I think has a pretty neat concept) and freespeechextremist.com (fediverse) are pretty much as-free-as-the-law-allows speech (though of course that still excludes some things). /s/DecentralizeAllThings and /s/SaidItAlternatives list some other platforms that may be of interest.

[–]theoracle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

and because of trying to not be like voat

There is a number of factors to voat, and freespeech is only one. Others are down votes, dominating personalities ,lack of any opposition combined to suppress any opposition. I think there is multiple ways you can avoid voat while still having absolute free speech, and optional moderation is one good way. Look how well post collapsing works on Notabug.

notabug.io (which I think has a pretty neat concept) and free

Notabug is alpha, a lot of the features are incomplete. Developer is gone too.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Porn reliably gets NSFW tags. That works well, even on Reddit or Twitter, which, ironically, are full with porn. You are more likely to catch a glimpse of a body part you don't like to see at a beach or a pool.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I will not replace one kind of identitarianism with another

What do you mean by "identitarianism" and what do you see as wrong with it?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

People's opinions being judged on the basis of their identity or person, for example, the idea that women would need a space online, absent of their physical presence on a site, where they cannot face danger by being confronted on their opinion. It is what the left is doing with minorities, black people, for example. You can have an opinion or input on something because of your "lived experience". That is akin to saying that a cancer patient is an oncologist.

If you are a male gynecologist, you can still know more about the female body than the average woman. I am a human male, yet, a woman who would have studied (male) anatomy would probably know more about my body than I do.

I believe identitarian positions to be inherently nonsensical. I also despise the idea that men are so detrimental to women that just sharing a discussion board online is harmful to them. An online space already puts you so far apart that this is completely irrelevant. There will also always, always, always be men in any women's space online. It is unavoidable. You can set up sites like Spinsters and you would still have men in the mix. The only difference is between them being honest or not, and I much prefer honesty, as far as it does not compromise the desired level of anonymity, than pretending.

These positions are so untenable in so many ways. Everything about this ideology is contradictory and nonsensical. As a consequence, these online communities inherit the contradictions. That is why they always have to defend their existence with exclusionary rules, banning, silence, authoritarianism. They can never survive on sound logic or truth alone. They always need to shut out a portion of arguments that threaten their premises.

It is not only that they always contort themselves into mental pretzels when structuring their community rules, they also always need to shun honest examination of the basis of their ideology, such as history, biology, evolutionary psychology, or simple statistics. How do people live like this for so long? I used to be a far leftist and I ran into these contradictions, after which I kicked it to the curb.

Let's cut the bullshit and state it plainly: there is no "community of women". What there actually is is a web page displaying text. You are not in danger, you are not in community with anyone. It's some text in English on a screen and either the content is useful or it is not, it is true, false or undecidable. You do not know how it was input, by whom, in what mental state, of what gender, if they were sincere, trolling, or parroting back the party line for approval.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Thanks for explaining.

I guess for me, personally I have been very, idk, into identity stuff lately. I've been following radical feminism and white identity stuff.

I do see some problems with it, and I can see how I'm kindof being used... idk that radical feminism or the alt-right are really acting effectively in the best interests of women or whites all the time. Like, sometimes it seems to help. And I appreciate having a refuge of sorts when I'm tired of hearing how dumb women are, or how bad whites are. And sometimes I just want to be around people who are more "like me," although there are ways I don't feel like I fit in with either of those groups too.

I like them though. I feel like it's different with the spaces are just for people of those groups. Like I tend to have different conversations offline with people in my life if I'm alone with one person, or in a group, or whatever. It's just different. And I don't think there's anything wrong or censorious about having spaces like that, that are clearly defined and explained, and aren't using a space that's meant for everyone (like e.g. /r/news).

It feels like there is value in it too. People are different, sometimes, ethnicity to ethnicity, gender to gender. I usually find it easier to talk with female people, idk why but it's just something I've observed. I usually feel more comfortable with other white people, not always, and sometimes that's just due to political stuff, and sometimes I feel more at ease with people who are from my same locale regardless of race. But it's there. I think there is a value in having spaces like this too.

I don't think having spaces like this necessarily requires people to have the full identitarian politics thing you're talking about though.

Do you feel a similar frustration with things that are meant for groups that you're personally part of, demographically?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know anything about the rest. Whatever is personal preference is up to you. If you're on a dating site, you want to be able to specify male or female, of course. If you are looking for a book on chemistry, it might be silly to prefer reading from a male or female author, and I will call you silly for it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Do you feel a similar frustration with things that are meant for groups that you're personally part of, demographically?

Oh, yes, I absolutely do. But that is out of identitarianism, which is why I hate it. I am increasingly forced into thinking in terms of my group membership and my ethnicity, because it can make the difference between me being murdered or not. I am not that naive.

Again, I am not making any statements about my person, just as I believe I have not disclosed my gender or ethnicity, but the more other people validate identity, the less choice I have to remain oblivious to it. I used to have far more connection with people based on interest. I could connect with someone from the other side of the planet based on the same interests.

The gaming community, for example, was destroyed in large part that way, I believe. It used to actually be one of the most inclusive communities imaginable. It did not matter what your gender or ethnicity was. If you liked some of the same games, you were instantly part of the group. It had the ability to bridge divides like few other things. Identitarians destroyed that. On this point, for example, feminists often allege that they were excluded from gaming communities. That could not be further from the truth. Men would have loved women to have shown interests in some of the same hobbies. Instead, it was derided, displayed as "uncool", you were bullied for it, by other men, and women would not have anything to do with you. We all saw that growing up, but now it seems we deny the most transparent parts about our culture.

The smears, lies, and the constant victimhood ideologies were what destroyed it. Suddenly, mere disagreement was violence. Everybody was being equally targeted with abuse for playing badly. People didn't usually know your gender or ethnicity anyway. That is some of the hypocrisy I see in radfems circles and from feminists who say they are being harassed online, on platforms where they have the choice to be completely anonymous. It's transparent what these people are doing. They disclose their identity on purpose so they can claim that they were attacked for it. Had they remained anonymous, such allegations would be obviously without basis. It's like Brianna Wu posting abuse to herself on her own dev account.

Keeping people safe from disagreement keeps them stunted in development. It is the same with the black community as it is with women. Men supposedly have an advantage in their upbringing and maybe that is true in so far that they are not as coddled, that they are told not to cry, that they are told to "man up". Such a community always remains infantile and dependent. People of a more self-reliant generation point this out about their own communities, such as Thomas Sowell. Black people are similarly hypocritical, at least black identitarians, in many of the same ways. They grow up sneering at education, looking down on other blacks who sit down and do their homework, but then they grow up to be useless and complain they were not given the same opportunities. They spat at the opportunities they did have.

But, the more important these aspects become, the more I shift whatever is relevant to identity offline. I do not know whom I speak to online. It could be anyone on the other side of the keyboard. People I need to trust I need to have met offline. I am building such a community, because I do not know how much worse the culture is getting. Then, I might need someone I can rely on.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I am increasingly forced into thinking in terms of my group membership and my ethnicity, because it can make the difference between me being murdered or not. I am not that naive.

It can? You think people from other groups want to murder you?

I used to have far more connection with people based on interest. I could connect with someone from the other side of the planet based on the same interests.

Yeah tbh I've had this experience too. :(

I've missed out on friendships because of this stuff, because it's inside me now, this group-identity stuff, and because it's inside the other people I'm supposed to be connecting with. Who it should be easy for me to connect with.

The smears, lies, and the constant victimhood ideologies were what destroyed it.

Yeah I think this is how the political groups recruit.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It can? You think people from other groups want to murder you?

Yes! Jesus, absolutely. If you walk into the wrong parts of certain cities, in certain countries, you better be aware what skin color you have. Today, it can make the difference between being hired or not, getting a spot in college, being attacked on the street, and in some particularly unsafe places if you get mugged or not, if you make it home alive.

Again, I do not disclose anything about my person, my skin color, my gender, but not all countries on this planet are equally safe. Some people who have it best complain the most. They do not realize how safe their communities are in comparison.

Just to be clear, I didn't think this way, I still don't like what is going on but it can be very dangerous to be naive to it.

Also, I don't know what "people from other groups" means. Everybody is from another group, by some metric. I know that I am more likely to be attacked based on certain characteristics. It's not out of some paranoia about certain groups.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you think it's gotten worse recently?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

With identity politics, yes. There is no way to push back against this anymore, either. The victimhood hierarchy is too firmly established. If you do not have the right identity, or if your attacker ranks more highly in the oppression game, you get nowhere.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/37410/dad-left-paralysed-with-half-a-skull-and-sunken-brain-after-brutal-attack-by-thug-who-gets-just-two-months-in-jail/

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Wait, just saw this pearl of wisdom here:

If you dare to cry faggot, fairy, queer, at us, we will stab you in your cowardly hearts and defile your dead, puny bodies.

Sorry, what? Are you off your meds?

But, either way, let's make an example of free speech out of this. If there is only garbage coming out of your mouth, I am free to ignore it. I do not need to censor you to illustrate your mental illness or whatever you are struggling with to the world. I can reply to whatever valid points you are making.

Tremble, hetero swine, when we appear before you without our masks.

Alright. Are you trying to make a point about censorship? I can ignore you without banning you categorically. You are trying to push me into blocking you to make a point? That won't work.

Also, I can be hypocritical, I won't deny that. But people will call me out on it, just like I am calling out Reddit refugees who set up new hug boxes.

[–]joeytundra 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This was not written by me. This was an essay published in Gay Magazine in the early 80's.