There's some censorship going on in the newly popular feminist subs and it needs to be openly addressed.

submitted by [deleted] from self.SaidIt

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[–]nonpenishaver 140 insightful - 13 fun140 insightful - 12 fun141 insightful - 13 fun -  (14 children)

GenderCritical was a sub for women who know that patriarchy exists. Who know that gender identity is bullshit. We will never be able to have productive discussions if we constantly keep having to "debate" men who come in and try to convince us that the very foundations of our beliefs are wrong. It'll go around it circles forever. There's no point to it. Personally I feel you should be able to comment but I don't believe anyone owes you debate.

Edit: whatever happened to "if you don't like something don't look at it"? Women don't constantly try to infiltrate male centric subs. This is something men on reddit do and it's fucking annoying.

[–]rdh2121 83 insightful - 7 fun83 insightful - 6 fun84 insightful - 7 fun -  (13 children)

whatever happened to "if you don't like something don't look at it"?

It's still alive and well. If you don't like a comment someone made on /s/GenderCritical, hide it and move on. If the sub is on /s/all, the sub is not a safe space, and exists for all users on Saidit. If that's not what the users of /s/GenderCritical want, all you have to do is remove yourselves from /s/all, and you can be as exclusive as you like.

Saidit was created to combat exclusion and censorship. You came here for that very acceptance of diverse viewpoints, so that's what you're getting. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[–][deleted] 49 insightful - 6 fun49 insightful - 5 fun50 insightful - 6 fun -  (12 children)

The rules quite aside, saying the patriarchy doesn't exist when you can read the news and tell it does isn't a "diverse viewpoint," it's a lie.

Saying women aren't in more danger in heterosexual relationships than men are isn't a "diverse viewpoint," it's a lie. Look at the domestic murder stats sometime. We can argue all day long about what constitutes abuse but no one can debate dead, and usually not who caused the death either.

Saying abortion should be outlawed isn't a "diverse viewpoint," it's denying pregnant women basic bodily autonomy and literally giving them fewer rights than a corpse (unless the person signed an organ donor card when they were alive, you can't take anything from them after death, whereas a fetus in an abortion-outlawed country can take its mother's blood, nutrients, and even life and she can't legally do anything about it even if the pregnancy endangers her). Saying that's OK is douchebaggery, not a "diverse viewpoint."

We have to go by the rules here, but I had to speak to this, because I'm tired of bad-faith debaters pretending like women's lives mean jack shit. I'm a woman. My life means a lot to me. My perspective of a man's arguments will necessarily be colored by that. I'm not sitting here pretending that men are not in danger from one another -- you are worse enemies to one another than you ever are to us! How you react to that is your business. How we react to our situations is ours.

But yes. We should definitely not be on /s/all if it's going to be that much a point of contention. God forbid teh menz not be able to correct women at every possible fucking turn. (That's how it looks from here. That's all we ever see online anymore.)

[–]xigoi 24 insightful - 7 fun24 insightful - 6 fun25 insightful - 7 fun -  (11 children)

saying the patriarchy doesn't exist when you can read the news and tell it does isn't a "diverse viewpoint," it's a lie.

Interesting, because from reading the news, I've learned that women are getting an unfair advantage in many places.

Saying women aren't in more danger in heterosexual relationships than men are isn't a "diverse viewpoint," it's a lie. Look at the domestic murder stats sometime.

Maybe if women didn't prefer to date violent men, they wouldn't end up with violent men.

God forbid teh menz not be able to correct women at every possible fucking turn.

I'd prefer to not judge people's arguments by their gender.

[–]ankh 30 insightful - 4 fun30 insightful - 3 fun31 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

Interesting, because from reading the news, I've learned that women are getting an unfair advantage in many places.

Ah, yes. Women should totally forget being raped to death since before written history because they get to be token hires and get huge

scholarships for useless liberal arts degree. I think you overestimate the benefits of being a Democratic political pawn.

Maybe if women didn't prefer to date violent men, they wouldn't end up with violent men.

Relationships don't start off abusive, and why are women are responsible for violent men?

I understand that there are a lot of crazy feminists, but most GC talking points just boil down to "men rape A LOT". Do you feel that this is up for debate?

[–]xigoi 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Women should totally forget being raped to death since before written history

People were cruel before the modern ages. Can we move on?

why are women are responsible for violent men?

If violent men are rewarded with a higher chance to get a relationship, it logically leads to more men being violent. Evolution.

but most GC talking points just boil down to "men rape A LOT"

Ah yes, I also like raping a few women before I go to bed. Who doesn't? /s

[–]ankh 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

People were cruel before the modern ages. Can we move on?

You make it seem like the problem has been resolved.

If violent men are rewarded with a higher chance to get a relationship, it logically leads to more men being violent. Evolution.

This dismisses the idea that people are often predatory and conceal their true colors as a means to get laid. Once in the trap, they use violence to maintain control. This also doesn't account for arranged marriages, abusive family members, sex trafficking, etc.

Ah yes, I also like raping a few women before I go to bed. Who doesn't? /s

Not sure why you're taking this personally? I get the #notallmen stuff, but that misses the point. Rapists are obviously in the minority, but rapists are overwhelmingly male and victims are overwhelmingly female. Again, do you feel this is up for debate?

[–]xigoi 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You make it seem like the problem has been resolved.

Rape is considered bad by almost all people in the modern society.

This dismisses the idea that people are often predatory and conceal their true colors as a means to get laid. Once in the trap, they use violence to maintain control.

If women are more likely to date bad men pretending to be good than actual good men, that still does say something.

Rapists are obviously in the minority, but rapists are overwhelmingly male and victims are overwhelmingly female. Again, do you feel this is up for debate?

There's a big difference between “most rapists are men” and “men rape A LOT”. Most quantum physicists are men, but I wouldn't say that doing quantum physics is COMMON among the male population.

[–]neckbeard_pirate 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think a lot of people have a cartoonish caricature of the stereotypical "abusive violent men". Probably a really jacked up guy who walks around with tattoos, swears a lot, beats up little old ladies and puppies on the street.

Chalk it up to naïveté. Or ignorance. Probably both. Unfortunately for us, evil doesn't come with whistle and bells. Violent psychopaths look just like regular people doing regular things. One has to grow up extremely sheltered and lucky to think otherwise.

[–]voi_che_sapete 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Interesting, because from reading the news, I've learned that women are getting an unfair advantage in many places.

Maybe check actual data next time.

Maybe if women didn't prefer to date violent men, they wouldn't end up with violent men.

About a quarter of the women I know have experienced physical abuse. With only one exception, you would never have guessed the man was violent. They are often kind, wellspoken people with decent jobs and social skills. Also, terrifyingly, the abuse tends to appear years into the relationship.

I'd prefer to not judge people's arguments by their gender.

That's your privilege. On an individual level, I do the same, but when a class of people is making your life miserable in a specific context, you make policy accordingly. That's just logical.

[–]xigoi 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Maybe check actual data next time.

According to actual data, men are less likely to win custody, receive higher sentences for the same crimes, have to pay in order to enter some bars, don't have men-specific abuse shelters, etc.

With only one exception, you would never have guessed the man was violent.

(X) Doubt
I mean, if you assume that good-looking men are always good, yes.

when a class of people is making your life miserable in a specific context

How is every single of 4 billion people on the planet making your life miserable?

[–]voi_che_sapete 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

According to data, actually, men gain custody a disproportionate amount of the time when they're the primary caregiver and ask for it; contrarily women who profess to being abused in court often lose custody, even in cases where the abuse is corroborated and acknowledged by the court. As for sentencing, that does hold up under scrutiny, and I hope it is talked about more and something is done about it.

Regarding bars: world's smallest violin. No reasonable person cares that much. Maybe try socializing in settings like house party scenes, musical subcultures, and the like - particularly places where consent culture is a big thing. In my experience, the more egalitarian a group is, the more the whole thing isn't just some race to populate a party with single females and everyone is valued (plus dating is way more relaxed and fun).

Regarding shelters: more and more domestic violence shelters for men are popping up and I'm all for it. None of these things disprove or discount feminism, and thinking so is incredibly simpleminded.

I mean, if you assume that good-looking men are always good, yes.

Look at Mr. Data here just assuming all of these men were conventionally attractive? lol. Do you redpill-influenced people ever actually go out in the world? Do you date and have social lives with people you have things in common with? Engage in hobbies? Your arguments are so easy to dispel from the perspective of anyone who is remotely worldly. Some of these men were my good friends, and the weddings were universally applauded by their friends and family. It's still a huge mindfuck thinking about the fact these people struck their partners.

How is every single of 4 billion people on the planet making your life miserable?

Straw man via hysterical escalation. That's not what I said and if you'd rather paint it that way than use your brain and think in terms of generalities and systems, you're a lost cause.

[–]xigoi 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

In my experience, the more egalitarian a group is, the more the whole thing isn't just some race to populate a party with single females and everyone is valued

Good point, but feminists often don't seem very egalitarian.

None of these things disprove or discount feminism, and thinking so is incredibly simpleminded.

I'd say feminism isn't a coherent ideology anymore, so I'd rather argue against specific points rather than an abstract word that everyone defines differently. (Before you ask, by “feminists” in the previous paragraph I meant people who identify as feminists, no matter what they think it means.)

assuming all of these men were conventionally attractive

Occam's razor.

you redpill-influenced people

I'm rather blackpilled.

Some of these men were my good friends, and the weddings were universally applauded by their friends and family. It's still a huge mindfuck thinking about the fact these people struck their partners.

This still seems fishy to me. Almost all of your male friends were pretending to be good for several years, without giving away anything about their actually evil nature until it was too late? That doesn't sound like something that could just happen. I feel like there's something more going on that I can't determine because I don't personally know them or you.

use your brain and think in terms of generalities and systems

If you see generalizations as a good thing, I don't even know what to say.

[–]neckbeard_pirate 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If by news, you mean Reddit memes or clickbait out-ragey articles that are more fluff than substance, yeah.

Pick of any history book and read. Actually, look at life outside of Western democracies. Look up news on how women get stoned to death for adultery. Look up on how some places persecute women if they dare to go to the police for being raped. Look at statistics of domestic violence.

Violence toward woman is the rule, not the exception, in most of the world. For much of history.

And I can't help but laugh at the "if women don't want to be a victim, then maybe they shouldn't date violent man" logic. You must live a wonderful life where you've never really had to deal with bad people. Or bad luck. I don't know how old you are but let's talk when you're 40. If you think you're magically sheltered from violent people in the world because you have an uncanny ability to weed them out - well, guess what? That's what most victims thought too! Most violent psychopaths don't walk around with a giant HI I AM A VILLAIN stamped to their forehead. I don't know how old you are, but let's talk when you're 40. Then maybe you would realize that anyone - even you - can be a victim. But it won't be so fun when the other people point the accusatory finger back at ya :D

[–]xigoi 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Look up news on how women get stoned to death for adultery.

Yeah, that mostly happens in countries with a certain religion. Wait, this is not Reddit, so I can say it. Islamic countries. I don't support Islam.

You must live a wonderful life where you've never really had to deal with bad people.

Sometimes you have to deal with bad people, but nobody is forcing you to date them unless you're in a country with arranged marriage (which I don't support, just to bo clear).

Most violent psychopaths don't walk around with a giant HI I AM A VILLAIN stamped to their forehead.

Most violent men display violent behavior, which is seen as more “masculine” and therefore has a higher success in dating. I'm not talking about the few who pretend to be non-violent.