you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]comments[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Where do you get your information that masks actually help?

Well, it feels difficult to bring to bear all the things I think I know about masks and how they work. It's difficult to completely state the reasons, so I don't think I can state my position with completeness. Refuting all these points might still leave the position "masks help" unrefuted since stating all the reasons is more work than I want to do right now. But here are some reasons I think they help:

  • They filter the air. Anything that filters the air, will, well, filter the air and remove things from it to some extent, things that might otherwise enter the body. Viral diseases are, as far as I know, transmitted by very small particles in the air that exit the respiratory and sometimes digestive tract of infected individuals. So anything that would reduce the amount of particles from the air getting into my respiratory tract should provide some protection against viral particles. Similarly, anything that reduces the amount of particles going out into the air from my breath should help reduce the number of viral particles I put out into the environment if I'm infected. So it should help both protect me and others if I filter the air coming out of and going into my respiratory tract.

  • Medical workers use them. As I understand it surgical masks are meant to reduce the particles going out from the breath of the surgeons. And medical personnel also use N95 respirators when treating COVID patients. Now, that's not proof they work, but it suggests that the authorities don't think masks and respirators do nothing.

  • When I looked at the issue back in January, the first things I saw were old studies about the flu. The article I saw showed that they were not 100% effective, but that they did help for respiratory illnesses. The very next day articles came out explicitly about coronavirus advising people not to wear masks. It seemed strange to me, and inaccurate because of what I'd read the day before and because it intuitively seemed like it would help. And it seemed strangely motivated to have this information being shared so widely like that so suddenly with such confidence of being accurate.

  • This isn't the study I saw before, but here's one from 2008 saying masks probably do help to protect people from influenza. Here's another that takes it as a given that masks help reduce the transmission of respiratory infections.

  • this article suggests they help when used properly and provides some supporting links

[–]fred_red_beans 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

As far as I'm concerned, the wearing of masks is a tool to keep people in a fearful mindset, and are more detrimental than helpful.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/face-masks-pose-serious-risks-healthy/5712649

Masks cause:

  • a reduction in blood oxygenation (hypoxia) or an elevation in blood C02 (hypercapnia)
  • if worn for hours, can reduce blood oxygenation as much as 20%
  • wearing a facial mask of any kind can cause a severe worsening of lung function for the frail elderly and those with lung diseases, such as COPD, emphysema or pulmonary fibrosis
  • a drop in oxygen levels (hypoxia) is associated with an impairment in immunity
  • By wearing a mask, the exhaled viruses will not be able to escape and will concentrate in the nasal passages, enter the olfactory nerves and travel into the brain

We are not gaining anything by wearing masks and having the healthy isolate. Doing so only prolongs the amount of time we develop herd immunity and generally keeps our immunity low.

[–]BobQuixote 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

By wearing a mask, the exhaled viruses will not be able to escape and will concentrate in the nasal passages, enter the olfactory nerves and travel into the brain

So? I've never heard anything about viruses mattering for the brain, specifically. It seems like they're always talked about as if getting infected means your body is (for all intents and purposes) immediately permeated with the virus, though I don't know how accurate that is.

Your other bullet points are about the wisdom of wearing masks for people in specific groups, which is not interesting to me in the context of whether people should generally wear them.

We are not gaining anything by wearing masks and having the healthy isolate. Doing so only prolongs the amount of time we develop herd immunity and generally keeps our immunity low.

That is a different approach based on different priorities. Society, or influential players within it, have prioritized minimizing our casualty rate, rather than accelerating the end of the pandemic. This is an example of "all lives are sacred" winning out over "the needs of the many." And it seems disingenuous to dismiss that so casually, as "we are not gaining anything."

[–]fred_red_beans 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't see any compelling evidence that indicates the wearing of masks or the lockdowns have minimized the death rate.

[–]BobQuixote 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well anything I supply is just going to be the result of me searching in the same way that you can. And I have no background to be judging such material, but here you go anyway: https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

[–]fred_red_beans 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Here's the article that my original post was citing:

Blaylock: Face Masks Pose Serious Risks To The Healthy

OK, from the cited pdf from 4/10/20 you have a "probably":

Although no randomized controlled trials (RCT) on the use of masks as source control for SAR S-CoV-2 has been published, a number of studies have attempted to indirectly estimate the efficacy of masks. Overall, an evidence review (29) finds "moderate certainty evidence shows that the use of hand-washing plus masks probably reduces the spread of respiratory viruses ."

You have a high speed camera experiment from 4/15/20.

The Nature article states:

There is little information on the efficacy of face masks in filtering respiratory viruses and reducing viral release from an individual with respiratory infections, and most research has focused on influenza

Our findings indicate that surgical masks can efficaciously reduce the emission of influenza virus particles into the environment in respiratory droplets, but not in aerosols

The Health Affairs, ResearchGate, CMAJ, and Washington Post articles are all cases or studies done after the mandate for masks.

Why would masks be mandated for the general public for a virus when there is no existing evidence that it has any benefit and has never been done before?

I still don't see any compelling evidence.

500,000 deaths from COVID-19 worldwide currently, while up to 650,000 die annually from the flu:

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu

The flu has 1 death per 1000, the CDC shows about 2 to 4 deaths per 1000 - not even close to 3-4% as originally stated:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

Additionally, the CDC has been issuing directives to inflate the COVID-19 mortality rate:

COVID-19 should be reported on the death certificate for all decedents where the disease caused or is assumed to have caused or contributed to death.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/coronavirus/Alert-2-New-ICD-code-introduced-for-COVID-19-deaths.pdf

The mask is nothing but a tool to encourage people to acquiesce to control.

There is no proof that social distancing works either:

https://www.kusi.com/usc-professor-joel-hay-says-there-is-no-scientific-proof-social-distancing-prevents-spread-of-coronavirus/