Kids Aren’t Born Trans — People who pursue a cross-sex identity aren’t born that way, and children should not be encouraged to “transition” to the opposite sex, according to a reference work endorsed by the American Psychological Association

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[–]wizzwizz4 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (19 children)

A perfectly ordinary expression of human identity. I guess you also think homosexuality is an illness? No matter. This is really just semantics, based on our inherent perceptions of the morality of various things.

[–]Zombi 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I mean, is it not indicative that something is wrong when your body is clearly designed for a certain thing yet your brain wants it to do another? Maybe "illness" isn't the right word, but it's very obviously NOT normal when you are born with a penis and you want a vagina, that just makes zero sense from an evolutionary standpoint.

I'm not saying homosexuality is wrong or being trans is wrong in a moral sense. I do think it is a disorder. We call people who think they're the center of the universe narcissists and we call it a mental disorder. We call people who hate themselves and their lives depressed and label it a mental disorder. We call people who lack empathy psychopaths and label them as having a mental disorder. None of the people with these disorders can control how they feel and they even have different brains just like a trans or homosexual person. Yet even though on paper being trans or gay checks all the boxes of a mental disorder, calling it so is seen as a bad thing?

I have depression. I can just as easily say I was born this way and my depression is a way of expressing my identity (and in some ways I do think it is). I'm fine with being labeled as "wrong" or having a "disorder". It doesn't define me and neither should your gender.

[–]wizzwizz4 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

that just makes zero sense from an evolutionary standpoint.

Neither does art. Neither does connecting thousands of computers together for the sole purpose of finding massive numbers with interesting properties. We don't call that a problem.

Yet even though on paper being trans or gay checks all the boxes of a mental disorder, calling it so is seen as a bad thing?

Well, yes. Because our classification system doesn't make sense, and doesn't extend like that. Creativity is a mental disorder. High-functioning autism is a mental disorder. Finding slapstick funny is a mental disorder. Liking cats is a mental disorder. Virtually everything is a mental disorder if you extend the categorisation like that.

Instead, consider: what do narcissism, self-loathing and lack of empathy have in common that homosexuality, trans…ness (what's the word‽) and creativity don't? The answer is that the former three inherently have negative effects on the person's life, but the latter three don't.

And, of course, all of these things have "treatments" (with various efficacies) to improve the lives of the "sufferers":

  • Narcissists can benefit from psychotherapy, or other treatments (I'm not really sure what the treatments are, and it's a really broad category!).
  • Depressives can benefit from CBT, and sometimes from medication, etc..
  • Psychopaths… TBD.
  • Homosexuals can benefit from a relationship, and acceptance.
  • Transgender people can benefit from HRT and SRS, and acceptance.
  • Creative people can benefit from painting equipment or a musical instrument.
  • High-functioning autists can benefit from a supportive environment and coping strategies.
  • Slapstick humour connoisseurs can benefit from a good Laurel and Hardy.
  • Cat lovers are untreatable, and should be condemned to the bottom rungs of society.

You see?

It doesn't define me and neither should your gender.

I completely agree. But for many people, their gender does define them. Certainly in our language it functions as a means of defining people; pronouns are customised to gender, etc.. That's why it's not just something people can just ignore. (I kind of wish they could, because then people wouldn't care so much about what other people choose to identify themselves with, but society is as society does.)

[–]Zombi 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Neither does art. Neither does connecting thousands of computers together for the sole purpose of finding massive numbers with interesting properties. We don't call that a problem.

Art is an expression of feeling, not a state of being so it doesn't really apply. We express our feelings all the time: We yell when angry, cry when sad, and dance when excited. It's perfectly natural to express yourself through art, it is just much more complex then simply screaming or crying. Connecting thousands of computers together for numbers with interesting properties is actually used in the process of solving problems like encryption. It also fulfills our curiosity, something else you could argue is vital to survival. The more curious you are, the more you learn, and the more you learn the better your odds of surviving are.

Creativity is a mental disorder. High-functioning autism is a mental disorder. Finding slapstick funny is a mental disorder. Liking cats is a mental disorder. Virtually everything is a mental disorder if you extend the categorisation like that.

Creativity shows adaptability and the ability to think in the abstract which is again, something vital to our survival as it's been abstract ideas built on over hundreds of years that has lead to humanity utterly dominating the food chain. High functioning autism is extremely counter-intuitive when applied to human beings as we are social animals. Autism's main trait is a severe lack of social aptitude; I don't see how that trait is advantageous to a social animal. Liking cats is a side affect to our natural affection for infants. Completely normal and expected. You can find we adore any animal that has large eyes and a large head compared to their body.

Finding slapstick funny, while more abstract, is pretty expected as well. Slapstick is based in dangerous situations resulting in minimal harm. Most humor is based in expectations being upended by reality. Apply it to primal man hearing a noise, expecting a tiger behind a bush, yet finding out it's a squirrel. He laughs at the unexpected outcome, subconsciously showing others that everything is ok, there isn't any harm being done; we are safe. When tensions are high humans are unpredictable. Having a natural way to negate tension is extremely advantageous.

I completely agree. But for many people, their gender does define them. Certainly in our language it functions as a means of defining people; pronouns are customised to gender, etc.. That's why it's not just something people can just ignore. (I kind of wish they could, because then people wouldn't care so much about what other people choose to identify themselves with, but society is as society does.)

Well then that's their problem. If you make your entire identity based on a singular thing you will forever be offended and angry because it's so easy attack your entire being. If society is incorrect, if our language is incorrect, our goal should be to change our language and our society. Currently it seems like the opposite is happening and it's causing so many issues. We're the sum of our parts, not a single part.

Either way, I don't feel like you've really addressed my main argument. If you're clearly born with a penis yet you have no attraction to women/want a vagina, doesn't that show something, somewhere went wrong? You have a built in appendage that's specifically built for a vagina yet you don't want to use it for it's purpose. That sounds like a disorder to me. It's like being born with a mouth and not wanting to eat...

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

If society is incorrect, if our language is incorrect, our goal should be to change our language and our society.

Yup. Well-said.

That sounds like a disorder to me.

Yes. But not necessarily a mental disorder. In fact, it isn't necessarily a problem with any individual parts at all. Perfectly functioning brain, perfectly functioning genitals… just not the right pairing.

Well then that's their problem.

I can't but disagree here. They're not the ones making their identity based on it, so I don't think they should carry the blame or the responsibility.

[–]Zombi 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I can agree, maybe I'm being a bit harsh there in your third point.

[–]wizzwizz4 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

We're agreed then; at least on the important points. We need to change our language and our society.

The easiest way to do that, judging by history, is to change our own behaviour (slowly, but not too slowly) and stick to that change. It'll spread to our social groups, and then to their social groups (though less so).

[–]Zombi 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I mean yes, of course. Like I said I don't think there's anything morally wrong about being LGBT or that being LGBT is unacceptable. I just think we should look at it realistically: it's a disorder. I accept many people with disorders and I don't think we should "fix" someone just because they have a disorder or that they deserve discrimination.

To me saying it's like saying that my depression is normal, or that my anxiety attacks are normal. Do I think I should be discriminated against and marginalized for my disorders? No, absolutely not. That doesn't mean I'm going to act as if I'm completely normal either. We're all a little weird, we all have a disorder of some kind. Refusing to face that is refusing to face the reality of your situation.

[–]wizzwizz4 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

In which case we should change the word "disorder". Wikipedia says:

The term disorder is often considered more value-neutral and less stigmatizing than the terms disease or illness, and therefore is a preferred terminology in some circumstances.

but I think it's almost run its course.

[–]slabgreen 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Just going to pop in here and say that this reasonable, intelligent debate between two adults is nice. I've spend way too much time on sites where any remotely political thread would have long dissolved into flaming and racial slurs.

[–]Icalasari 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Autism's main trait is a severe lack of social aptitude; I don't see how that trait is advantageous to a social animal.

The brain is wired very differently, so it can confer some advantages (I wouldn't be shocked if way back when, shamans, medicine men, and the like were disproportionately autistic), but yeah in today's day and age, we autists have an uphill battle =/

Least I wasn't born in medieval Europe - I'd have probably been thrown into the woods as a child because people thought I was a changeling or something

[–]Zombi 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh yes there's advantages and disadvantages to autism just like everything else, I just think in the whole darwinian sense social intelligence trumps the advantages that autism brings. Either way, my main point was that it's a disorder and we all have them. Labeling it as such doesn't make you a worse person or wrong. It is what it is and we all have our bad/good parts.

[–]CherryPieNTheSky 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I concur with your points. Why is being trans not mental illness? I suffer from depression, anxiety, and ptsd - I am considered mentally ill because of that. Yet a little boy who has a penis but doesn't want it, is normal?

[–]Icalasari 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not like it's even an insult - it's literally that the way the brain is wired causes the person issues and anguish in modern society to the point of sometimes needing treatment to manage, which being trans clearly does cause (in the case of trans, stuff like hormone treatments and sex reassignment surgery)

[–]useless_aether[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

more like something along these lines https://www.barnhardt.biz/diabolical-narcissism/

[–]wizzwizz4 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't understand what you mean by linking that video. I really, really don't understand.

[–]useless_aether[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

well, it encapsulates my view on the matter. did you watch some of it yet?

[–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's over 2⅚ hours long! And considering that it has a section called:

Feminism: Making women into Diabolical Narcissists

and another called:

HOMOSEXUALITY AND ABERROSEXUALITY

(yes, all-caps!) and another called:

Hag fags and their fag hags

and another called:

ISLAM: Pure Diabolical Narcissism

and another called:

The vice of EFFEMINANCY as "bush league" Diabolical Narcissism

(again, caps present in original) I'm not sure it's the sort of thing I'd enjoy.

[–]useless_aether[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

cool... maybe others will find it interesting