all 17 comments

[–]indianusjones 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh, Jesus, here we go.

This shows minimal impact (others show higher impact to be fair) but doesn't take into account:

  • Higher unemployment through competition
  • Deteriorating government services through taking care of immigrants

[–]fred_red_beans 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Perhaps OP is only looking to answer the question of illegal immigration and it's financial impacts, but I have to consider the context of the question. Is it a drain or a benefit? Hard to tell really, as it's illegal and off the books. However, we do know that it in no way compares with a 716 Billion dollar US "defense" budget.

For instance, Venezuela is a country of people with a democratically elected leader who want to stay in their own country, yet the US government is pushing for their own agenda. To say that we need to block immigration to the US because of the financial impact yet also say that we should use the US military, which has a far higher economic impact, to "help" the people of Venezuela is hypocritical in the least.

Also, should a community, nation, region, tribe, what have you - have the right to sovereignty and the right to refuse individuals in order to preserve their own culture and values?

I am personally not too concerned about illegal immigration and it's effects upon my livelyhood, I am however concerned about the US and NATO bases plastered across the world and their foriegn wars and interventions causing mass immigration.

These are my thoughts, hopefully not too off-topic.

[–]JasonCarswell 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And the CIA activities that manipulate and oppress the countries to force people to flee.

[–]wendolynne 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Here in Iowa, back in the 1970's, meat packing was unionized, and a meat packer could make a good living, support a family, save for retirement. http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/250/meat-packing.html Field work like detassling corn was a quick way to make some money. Now these are low-wage jobs, and every so often ICE will come, arrest and deport a bunch of people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postville_raid But meat prices are lower, so there is that. Small family farmers are no longer the norm. The economics are quite different. You ask "Do illegal immigrants help the US financially?" but I don't see a monolithic "the US", I see a many-faceted economy and culture. Corporate interests are served by the low-wage workers that are easily cheated and manipulated with threats of deportation, and this erodes a certain level of decency in society. When I approached a lawmaker about wage theft - workers not being paid https://www.wagetheft.org/faq - he seemed to think that only citizens deserved the protection of government. Your question seems to suggest that our neighbors are not deserving of public services. Shame on us if we fail to be compassionate!

[–]SecretlyHistoricMOD-WILL NOT DEBATE. JUDGING YOU ON YOUR SOURCES[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hi Wendolynne, thanks for commenting! However, your comment does not include any sources and relies on anecdotal evidence. Please consider this your first warning in this debate round.

[–]wendolynne 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

thanks for the warning. Links have been added to support my position.

[–]SecretlyHistoricMOD-WILL NOT DEBATE. JUDGING YOU ON YOUR SOURCES[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you!

[–]wendolynne 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And the focus on financials runs roughshod over human decency, environmental concerns, and the rule of law. Why should your corporation be allowed to ruin our quality of life? https://helpsavenature.com/externalized-costs

[–]Flesh 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Some are, some aren't.

Immigration makes unskilled wages lower and skilled wages higher: https://www.nber.org/papers/w12497

Overall, it probably makes the economy grow: https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23550/the-economic-and-fiscal-consequences-of-immigration

[–]indianusjones 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When we hear, "makes the economy grow," we should ask ourselves, "makes the economy grow for whom?"

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't understand why the date is 3 days away. Who is debating who? Is this based on a Reddit thing?

This dilemma may be worthy of a political debate:

"/s/TheHolocaust: Facts about the Holocaust" is another new sub, created just before this one. It looks like it's promoting the official story.

Is it worth starting another /s/TheHolocaust_Skepticism (has been in my que, now in my top 15 or 20) or should we post the arguments in their sub? I don't want to shit on their parade but I also won't be silent and raise questions. Separating the two concepts has pros and cons, as does politely confronting them.

Either they will repeat propaganda, have refined arguments to help me learn more nuanced things and require more refined answers, or maybe even I'll change or question some things, or maybe I/we will change their ideas - or both.

For future posts, maybe you want to have a "2019-04-19 Debate" post as well as a "2019-04-19 Commentary" post for random stuff like this comment or other semi-related commentary and free speech outside of the debate wrestling-ring. Just a thought.

I hope this comment is worthy of consideration. Because it's out of place and I don't want to rain on this sub or your post, feel free to save it, delete it, hide it, ignore it, whatever.

[–]SecretlyHistoricMOD-WILL NOT DEBATE. JUDGING YOU ON YOUR SOURCES[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Not really a reddit thing, not seen anything like this there. Maybe Neutral politics is close? This is supposed to a bit of a controlled venue for debate. I'm putting up a topic in the hopes of keeping some kind of focus- god knows our politics need some sort of focus right now. I'm hoping for learning and debate. If we can't even talk, how can we solve any problems?

You've got some good ideas though. I'll put up a commentary post, and perhaps a suggestions one as well. Thanks for commenting!

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Another idea for a debate:

How can real-progressives get an honest chance in the corporate-Democratic party?

I can come up with dozens more.

FYI: 19th is also Movie Night, Fridays!

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]SecretlyHistoricMOD-WILL NOT DEBATE. JUDGING YOU ON YOUR SOURCES[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Hi derr, thanks for commenting! I'm glad you like the idea of this sub. Please note that all top level comments require source links.

    [–]wizzwizz4 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Not even the admins are above the law!

    [–]d3rr 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    RIP my comment :)