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[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

But there is more than enough evidence of election illegalities to call it fraudulent on the balance of probabilities.

Not even close. Every single court case that has been brought, and there have been many has not just failed, it's been laughed out of court. In many cases sanctions have been applied to the attorneys for bringing frivolous lawsuits.

The SCOTUS ruled that swing states had illegally counted invalid ballots and that this likely swung the result from Trump to Biden

You might have to link me to that ruling.

All I can find is that they refused to hear the case. U.S. Supreme Court formally pulls the plug on election-related cases

The three dissenting judges wrote dissents.

Which case is the one you reckon is about the 2020 election?

Bridge Aina Le’a, LLC v. Hawaii Land Use Commission is a case about a company wanting to build homes in Hawaii.

Dominion has been awarded $787 million. Whether Fox actually pays it or not remains to be seen.

Nope. That was an out of court settlement. That what Fox agreed to pay to get out of going to court.

Fox is controlled opposition. They don't want to see Trump win any more than the Never Trump Republicans or Democrats do.

They pushed a lie about the election being stolen, even though they knew it to be false. They misrepresent facts a lot, but in this case, there were victims who suffered financial loss.

There's a shit-ton of evidence that Dominion machines could have been hacked or manipulated, including actual forensic evidence of vote manipulation in Michigan.

You should have let fox know. They spent $787.5 million dollars because that was not only false, but they knew it to be false.

You could have offered it to them for $400 million, and bought yourself a new car.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Every single court case that has been brought, and there have been many has not just failed, it's been laughed out of court.

Not every single case, I can think of at least one exception, but certainly the vast majority of cases have been dismissed on technical grounds: usually lack of standing to sue. The cases weren't "laughed out of court" because the evidence was bad -- although I admit than in some cases it was bad -- but because the petitioner had no legal right to sue. The evidence was not considered.

Which of course is the point: with very few exceptions, the claims of fraud have not been investigated or heard in the courts, they have merely been dismissed without considering the evidence. When Bill Barr said that the DoJ found no evidence of any election fraud, he was telling the truth because the DoJ did not investigate or look for election fraud. There are hundreds of people who have sworn affidavits on penalty of perjury that they witnessed election fraud, and the DoJ simply failed to investigate, then said they found no evidence fraud.

Prior to 2016, it was prohibitively expensive and difficult to contest an election result or call for a recount. But after 2016, the laws were amended to make it almost impossible. Only the second-place losing candidate can sue, and only if the winning margin is less than 1% of the votes. (Note to anyone considering election fraud: make sure you win by more than 1%.)

Under the current laws, the quality of evidence is irrelevant. Almost all of the people who tried to sue for a recount had no standing to sue, or the court simply had no jurisdiction to hear the case. When you hear about a lawsuit being thrown out, remember that this means the evidence was never even looked at not that the evidence was poor.

The courts routinely ignore election officials breaking the laws, e.g. destroying paper ballots after they are counted, voting machines being connected to the internet, ballots being counted behind closed doors without observers from the other party being allowed to watch, evidence of tampering of data on voting machines, etc. Prior to November 2020 these were known problems that the media was prepared to talk about, especially Democrat accusations that Republicans have stolen elections. But after November 2020 the media started calling claims of fraud "unprecedented", and that it is virtually treason to question the results.

Barrack Obama won his first nomination for the Illinois senate in 1996 by successfully accusing all four of his Democrat opponents of electoral fraud and having them removed from the ballot, leading to him standing unopposed. Then in 2020 Obama told Trump to stop whining about losing and that accusations of election fraud were endangering democracy.

The evidence doesn't legally matter because the laws are designed to make it seem like there is election oversight but in fact there are loopholes big enough to sail an aircraft carrier through.

And when all else fails, do what Maricopa County election officials did: simply refuse to cooperate with subpoenas.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Not every single case, I can think of at least one exception

There was one part of one case where the scrutineers were allowed to stand closer to those counting the ballets than they were comfortable with, given CoVID.

Every single ruling about evidence of fraud was thrown out. And the Kraken lawyers were sanctioned for bringing frivolous lawsuits, which they are appealing.

the claims of fraud have not been investigated or heard in the courts, they have merely been dismissed without considering the evidence,

No. That's wrong. The courts involved all look at the evidence. That's what courts do. They found that the evidence was lacking. Completely. So much so that bringing the cases was sanctionable.

Under the current laws, the quality of evidence is irrelevant.

Not in this case. It was very relevant that the quality of evidence was so shit.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Every single ruling about evidence of fraud was thrown out. And the Kraken lawyers were sanctioned for bringing frivolous lawsuits, which they are appealing.

The Kraken lawyers do seem to be shysters but did you actually read the judge's ruling in the sanction? I have. It doesn't prove what you think it does.

  • Page 2 of the sanction says: "To be clear, for the purpose of the pending sanctions motions, the Court is neither being asked to decide nor has it decided whether there was fraud in the 2020 presidential election in the State of Michigan." The sanctions are not about electoral fraud, but about the attorney's professional behaviour.

  • In her conclusion, the judge makes it clear that the attorneys wasted the court's time by pressing a case that could not be won: "given the deficiencies in the pleadings, which claim violations of Michigan election law without a thorough understanding of what the law requires...". This is not a claim that the claims of fraud had no merit. This is a claim that the lawyers failed to understand what was required by the law to prove fraud. (To be clear: that's bad for a lawyer. But it doesn't disprove the claims of fraud.)

  • The judge states that the attorneys abused the legal system in four ways:

    • by proffering claims not backed by law;
    • proffering claims not backed by evidence;
    • by proffering factual allegations and claims without engaging in the required prefiling inquiry;
    • and dragging out these proceedings even after they acknowledged that it was too late to attain the relief sought.

The last item is critical. This is not a claim about the merits of the case, but that plaintiffs missed their opportunity to challenge the result and it was too late to do anything about it, and therefore they should have withdrawn. The judge is not using these exact words, but essentially she is saying that even if they were right about the election fraud, legally once the Michigan electors certified the result, there is no legal possibility to overturn it. To quote:

“First, Plaintiffs’ counsel unreasonably and vexatiously multiplied the proceedings in this litigation by failing to dismiss the case when their claims became moot, which plainly occurred upon the vote of Michigan’s electors on December 14, if not earlier.” (Emphasis added.)

This was not just a throw-away comment, it was critical to the sanctions. The judge literally sanctioned the attorneys for making the defendants file a motion to dismiss instead of voluntarily withdrawing it, and repeated her comment almost word for word: "... by failing to voluntarily dismiss this lawsuit on the date Plaintiffs’ counsel acknowledged it would be moot and thereby necessitating the filing of motions to dismiss, Plaintiffs’ attorneys unreasonably and vexatiously multiplied the proceedings."

Democracy in action. Doesn't matter if the elections are fraudulent, once the result is accepted, you're stuck with it. Once the state electors certify the result, it no longer matters what evidence you have and the courts expect you to withdraw the case under penalty of legal sanction.

As far as the evidence goes, the judge deferred entirely to the state case Costantino, which "rejected" the evidence given. Note that the judge does not say that the evidence was disproved, but only that it was "rejected". The Michigan court rejected the Costantino case in just four days, so I doubt that anyone looked deeply into the evidence. There was certainly no official attempt to collect forensic evidence of fraud, or interview witnesses, or question election workers. The evidence was not seen by a jury, there was no cross-examination of witnesses under penalty of perjury.

And then ten days later the court rejected an appeal by Costantino because the question of fraud was now moot as the electors had certified the results.

Do you not see the vicious circle here? The evidence doesn't get investigated by the authorities who have a vested interest in not rocking the boat, and that lack of investigation gets used as justification to reject the evidence out of hand, which means it never gets seen in a court with a jury and cross-examinations, which then gets used as justification for claiming the evidence has no merit. And since the claims of fraud have no merit, that proves that the elections are fair and secure and there's no need to investigate claims of fraud they can just be dismissed out of hand.

Even if it is correct that the Kraken lawyers used fake "evidence" (in which case I agree they should be sanctioned!) that tells us nothing about the hundreds of other claims from all over the country.

To be clear: I'm not naive. I realise that the majority of fraud claims made in the heat of days and weeks after the 2020 election are probably bogus. Many of them, even if true, may not have shifted the result. But without a proper investigation by authorities, the best anyone can do is collect evidence which suggests fraud, but if the authorities refuse to investigate you cannot prove it to any legal standard. Which is the point -- the only people who are capable of proving fraud to the high standard required to overturn an election refused to investigate, and then used that failure to dismiss the fraud claims with "there's no evidence".

Hundreds of witnesses are prepared to swear in a court of law, under penalty of perjury, that they witnessed fraud. Not one single one of them has actually been asked to do so.

Without a proper investigation by law enforcement and election officials, whatever evidence you can gather will be rejected as "conjecture and supposition" regardless of its merits, and then after being rejected you have no opportunity to defend the evidence and prove it in a court of law.

E.g. videos of election workers unloading ballot boxes at 3am at polling centers when they're supposed to be closed for the night get dismissed as "conjecture" because nobody saw what was inside the boxes (maybe they were filled with kittens) or whether the supposed ballots were actually counted (maybe the workers used them as toilet paper) or indeed whether the ballots were fraudulent or not. The videos don't prove that they were fraudulent so the assumption is that they are not.

Statistical anomalies like thousands of ballots in a row going to one candidate, or results flipping from one candidate to the other overnight when there shouldn't be any vote counting going on, get dismissed as "supposition" on the say-so of the voting machine company claiming "Trust us, nobody can flip votes" and even when security experts prove the opposite it doesn't matter because nobody can prove that those specific votes were flipped since the election data is unavailable and the machines almost never get audited.

In the incredibly rare case that a voting machine is audited, and the auditors find that it had been improperly manipulated and data deleted, with security logs removed and evidence of tampering, that's not enough to prove election fraud because without the security logs you can't prove that the votes were tampered with. And so it goes.

There are two ways of looking at democratic elections:

  1. Elections must not just be fair but also seen to be fair, and if votes could have been fraudulently changed then we must assume that they were and reject the election results.

  2. Or that election results are fair by definition, and unless you can point to which specific votes were fraudulently changed at what exact moment by which precise person, we must assume that the results are legitimate. If the results could have been changed, that does not matter unless you can prove that they were changed. (Which of course you cannot do in the mere weeks you have before the electors certify the results.)

The people of the USA expect #1 holds but the law operates on #2.

[–]ActuallyNot 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In the sanctions trials, the court focused on sanctionable conduct.

In the trials themselves, the courts decided on the complete lack of evidence of fraud.

The Michigan court rejected the Costantino case in just four days, so I doubt that anyone looked deeply into the evidence.

I don't. The lack of evidence was really obvious.

To know that the affidavits supplied by plaintiffs, purporting fraud, were "rife" with generalization, speculation, hearsay, and a lack of evidentiary basis, all you have to do is read them. Noting that there's a lack of evidentiary basis is as deep as you can look into the evidence in cases like this were none is supplied.

And then ten days later the court rejected an appeal by Costantino because the question of fraud was now moot as the electors had certified the results.

Noting that the lower court had already ruled that there was no evidence of fraud.

Even if it is correct that the Kraken lawyers used fake "evidence" (in which case I agree they should be sanctioned!) that tells us nothing about the hundreds of other claims from all over the country.

It's telling that the ones that were brought before courts all failed.

Hundreds of witnesses are prepared to swear in a court of law, under penalty of perjury, that they witnessed fraud. Not one single one of them has actually been asked to do so.

Who are these hundreds, and why didn't the Kraken lawyers get them instead of the blatant bullshit that they submitted as affidavits?

E.g. videos of election workers unloading ballot boxes at 3am at polling centers when they're supposed to be closed for the night get dismissed as "conjecture"

Can you be more specific with your example? Which polling center are you talking about?

Statistical anomalies like thousands of ballots in a row going to one candidate

That would be a statistical anomaly. What's your example of that?

or results flipping from one candidate to the other overnight when there shouldn't be any vote counting going on

There was a case where results were incorrectly entered into the press system, by typo. There was no case where results flipped overnight, just the reporting of the results were corrected.

In the incredibly rare case that a voting machine is audited

In 2020 44 states required a post election audit. That's better described by "pretty common" than "incredibly rare", isn't it?

and the auditors find that it had been improperly manipulated and data deleted,

Nope, that report was bollocks.

The people of the USA expect #1 holds but the law operates on #2.

The law operates nearer to 1. Transparently false claims of fraud don't mean that the law doesn't investigate election fraud where it might have happened, especially where it might have made a difference.