Am I victim blaming by making these comments about women's clothing?

submitted by Immortallogic from self.PinkPillFeminism

I made a post in a woman's group I'm part of, on FB, regarding safety in public spaces and being assertive, trusting your gut, walking with purpose, not looking meek, lost, etc.

One of my points was clothing, and that women's clothes are often tight, revealing, always riding up or down and require constant adjustment to the body (hunching shoulders, crossing legs, etc). I suggested wearing men's or unisex clothes and feeling the difference it makes. I also made a comment about throwing your heels out lol.

I didn't think this was a big deal, and nowhere did I say anything about it being a woman's fault to be assaulted depending on clothes she's wearing. if anything, it was more of a comment regarding the utilitarian nature of clothing and how women's clothes usually don't cut it.

I got a slew of women immediately tell me they 'will wear what they please, thanks', that I was victim blaming, that I was shifting the onus on women rather than men, etc.

This was not my intention, and it obviously is not women's fault if they are attacked, regardless of clothing.

However, my belief is as follows, and I'd like your opinions (I did not write the bow portion on the FB group):

Yes, in an ideal world, women should be able to wear what they please. but we all know we don't live in an ideal world, and women who wear revealing clothes are more susceptible to assault/unwanted attention, etc. Women are, on average, weaker than men, and we are the ones that could get pregnant should we get assaulted. because of this, we need to take more precautions in a number of situations, including what we wear.

That is the one part. the other parts include the fact that women's clothes are often overly sexualized, so why the hell would you want to wear them anyway? to be seen as a sex object? I'd rather be respected for my brain/personality.

The other part is the consumerism potion - women's clothes are so non-functional oftentimes, for example pockets that are tiny and then require one to buy a purse to put ones shit it.

So, given everything above, are my points sexist and victim blaming, as the women in the FB group said? I do come from a more socially conservative background so it's possible my view is biased...

I figured this would be a good group of women to discuss with. Thanks!

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[–]FuriousPenguin 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

There are women who've been raped while wearing unisex clothes, loose clothing, unattractive clothing. You were victim blaming by giving that advice. While I agree with the general statement it is up to men to stop raping or assaulting. I'm from a country where 8 month old babies are raped and 80 year old grand mothers are raped. Your comments would not apply to them. Men rape because they can. Not because the woman was dressed well.

[–]Maryam 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I fail to still see how it's victim blaming.

Point number one - it would be helpful for you if you find ways to prevent yourself from getting in a situation where you could be sexually assaulted. It is not victim-blaming. It is advice. You can take it or leave it - we'll still punish assaulters if they hurt you, regardless. But it is still advice for women who would rather not be assaulted - and i fail to see how "it blames the victims" is sufficient enough to stop it from being solid advice that works.

Point number two - your clothing does have a significant factor in making you seen as a target. Why did the elder woman and the infant both have in common? They were seen as weak by men and thereby an easy target. Clothing that can hide a weapon or clothing that makes you appear professional and well-off, has the possibility to be one of the factors that stops you from appearing weak to anyone. Your appearence does matter. A woman who wears a shalwar kameez in Pakistan would be ignored in comparison to a woman wearing a mini-dress. It is unfortunate, but we live amongst men here, which is a tragedy in of itself. Of-course, it is not 100% guaranteed clothing will help you, but depending on the context it could easily be a significant factor that leads to you getting ignored

[–]Happy_face_caller 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Men rape feather covered chickens.

They also feel entitled to rape scantily clad women, it’s a fact and preventative measure, not blame

[–]Immortallogic[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for your perspective, and that is horrendous.

So given your experience/ exposure to what you described, do you genuinely think that if a woman is dressed provocatively it has no bearing on the type/amount of negative attention she'd get from guys and she shouldn't bother being concerned about what she's wearing?

[–]FuriousPenguin 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Let me clarify. I didn't mean you literally were blaming women for getting raped for wearing short clothes. I meant the statement you made is a common Victim Blaming statement. It is what people use as an excuse and when a statement like that comes from a fellow woman men will jump on it and use it to blame the victim. Where I'm from you can't wear swimsuits at the beach. Not safely anyway and not always. You can't easily wear shorts on the street. Even at the gym, if there are men around you're blamed for trying to be a seductress. If men can workout in shorts why can't I? I'm honestly so used to people blaming the victim that I'm hyper sensitive to it. It is solid advice considering how men behave but it reminds me of that picture of that woman, holding a sign, in loose clothes, saying "this is what I was wearing when I was raped. Don't blame my clothes" or something like that. It's so often used to blame women for their assaults that it should stop being used. At this point it's just ammo for the rapists.

[–]Happy_face_caller 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sorry I agree with you. Yet it’s a very political statement As political as our Ridiculous clothing so we can’t run away or that our carrying weapons to protect ourselves from being attacked is illegal.

It’s like walking past a bunch of unchained junk yard dogs with bacon in your pocket and being surprised you got attacked.

Sure it’s the dogs fault, but could I have been more proactive in my own safety? Yeah.

Those women live in a dream world where if we keep screeching at men they will finally change. Well they aren’t going to lol. They haven’t changed since We taught them how to stop panting and invented language, that’s the last time they’ve changed because there Is nothing in it for them.

So even if these women are techinically right, that men should stop raping and we should be free to wear what we want, we don’t live in that world.

They should knock it off with their kill the messenger and stop raising sons that are violent and get into reality

[–]Immortallogic[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for this. Yeah, I took a chance because I have no idea what part of the spectrum those women are, but I assumed it was more Lib leaning since the group accepts "all kinds of women" etc.

I love your dog analogy, I'd use that but I think they would go up in arms lmao.

"So even if these women are techinically right, that men should stop raping and we should be free to wear what we want, we don’t live in that world."

100%. They are correct but it's simply not reality and rather than be delusional, I'd rather be realistic. When we live in a utopia (never) they can rag on me all they want for victim blaming, but then I wouldn't be saying that stuff lol.

[–]Nemesis_Noire 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

you dared to point out the reality of high heels being a hindrance in running away and that somehow makes you worse than rapists of old women and infants. I guess it's good to know which women think it's more important to police your language and argue semantics than offer actual help.

[–]Immortallogic[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Straight up. I'm getting so sick of this annoyingly PC but increasingly nonsensical world we're living in.

I started reading an article the other day as d had to stop when the author used 'uterus havers, femme identified people' and other garbage instead of saying women, and it frustrated the hell out of me to believe that this is what's supposed to be 'progressive' nowadays.

[–]missdaisycan 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You expressed your perspective. A handful of commentators cherry picked ONE item of your post, and others chimed in. Don't sweat it. Readers are of different life experiences, and responding based upon those and their own expectations/wishes. Thank you for being concerned about women's safety!

(IRL, there is no "right" answer to the clothing question. It will always be individual choice, and rapists/murderers do their thing because they decide to - they're psychopaths.)

[–]Immortallogic[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you, you're right, I know. It's just frustrating when you're trying to help people and they choose one thing, blow it out if proportion and harp on it. It's like.... Ladies.... I'm not the enemy here lol.

It can be lonely to see reality for what it is I guess. Although I will also say I did also get support and thanks about the points as well, it's just that a huge majority only spoke about that one point.

And thank you for the kind words! I will post the tips here tomorrow, to get your people's feedback too, and see if I could add anything to it :)

[–]yayblueberries 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Those are the same women who get offended when they wear overly tight yoga pants and wind up with a lesbian like myself staring at their ass. It's easy for them to go MEN ARE RAPISTS MEN SHOULDN'T RAPE but should I not also lesbian? If your ass cheeks are gonna be put on display to the point where the only thing left to the imagination is the actual skin on them, don't fucking bitch.

[–]Immortallogic[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm glad other woman also agree. As a bi women I know exactly what you mean lol.