My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]d3rr 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I just want to point out the huge parallels between what's described here and ActivityPub: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ActivityPub

I like the forking/cloning a forum idea.

One of the largest problems we face today are shills and bots attacking online forums. Discussion on how we can combat this problem. by icebong in PhoenixForum

[–]Pononimus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know what's the first best solution for getting away from the bots and shills? Find alternatives to being online or find alternative online options (like but not limited to things like IRC) where we wouldn't have to put up with that crap.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]fschmidt[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Decentralized social forums requires exchanging data which is what you call federated.

Moderators must be able to control their forums. Otherwise all forums will be overwhelmed by masses of moronic modern scum hurling empty insults at anyone who isn't a moron.

I assume that users can't pick a view because the view defines more than just appearance, it also defines what functionality is available.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]LarrySwinger2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'll reiterate the point I made in the other thread, since this is the place to discuss it. We already have decentralization in that anyone can set up their own forum, and people can point their web browsers to the sites they like or subscribe only to RSS feeds they like. Your vision still allows moderators to abuse their powers. If that happens on a large scale (like it did on Reddit), that means people have to mass migrate to new forums, and that takes a long time. Platforms like Facebook and Reddit are still alive in spite of their censorship and spying on users, simply because it's hard to get people to move to alternatives. What this vision achieves is that there's a lower barrier to creating a new forum (since people don't need technical skills or a budget for professional hosting), but is this enough? Why is it important to allow moderators to censor speech?

Also, can users pick what view they want to use, overriding the moderators' decision?

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]Bigs 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Then one server is the active one that your forum domain points to"

OK, so I block you at the DNS level, what then?

MetaVote™ - Part 1: A Brief Outline Of A Potentially Revolutionary New GUI Data-Input Form (A tool for more quality information and profoundly deeper, stronger applications - including STABs management.) [Without images or animation to illustrate how simple it can be.] by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

We can't expect to get miraculous information from binary data, so yes it's more complex than upvote/downvote. But a 5x5 input grid is not really that complex. Get that working and we can add all the extra bells and whistles to the GUI. More critically is how the data is utilized. THERE is the complexity. There is where it can be screwed up, depending on how you use it. Yet even still, the original input data is just the original input data and should not be corrupted. It's the use of the data to generate other data that could be the problem if the expressions are wonky. Nothing complicated will ever be perfect on the first try. There will be hurdles.

But it is great to have far more voting options to (1) give some feedback to the poster, and (2) rank the post in the list or category.

I would love to have more stats available to the poster and for ranking too. For example, how many people even look at the post/article/image/video? How many look at the comments? For how long? How many folks vote on the title alone without even looking at it?

With this MetaVote thing and the data it would produce it wouldn't matter who was a STAB or not. There'd be no need for filters besides reporting something illegal. Users would be classified, stereotyped, and tribalized by their actions, their opinions, and how others view their content. Echochambers would form - but critically the site admins and/or the users would decide how much content they want to see that's not within their statistical scope. Say 75%-90% could be what's expected, but that remaining 10%-25% could be mixed content that's outside their norm. By marking it they would contributing to the auto-curation process by strengthening the definitions of their circles of interests. Obviously not all rap fans will like country music, but some will and they will form an overlapping sub-group.

I would like about 10 options like friends with different colour codings.

And the posts are ordered by how much points my friends gave the posts.

I like this idea a lot. Of course this kind of thing could be done with MetaVote data too.

Additionally the admins have certain friends and they determine the ordering of the default list. (A bit like "editor's choice" on Rumble.com )

I guess I'll have to check that out as I don't understand it.

This will make the site easier accessible for new people, and guide the site into the way the admins want.

What/however that is/works I'm all for it.

I think that a site needs some guidance to keep it from turning into a chaos of information.

Indeed! That's why since I arrived (from wiki) I wanted to improve the sub categorization and organization process.

This way STAB will not be visible on the site, even if they work together massively.

Sounds good but I don't understand how.

With your voting you grade the quality of the information, but people put bias in the voting.

Indeed and that is to be expected, and maybe even embraced. Everyone will have their own voting style. Some people will hypervote and some will barely vote and everything in between. If someone is an extreme voter their votes should be weighted to have less influence - IF it's a point system. I would reject the point system. Amazon has a simple 5 star voting system and you can see when there are polarized votes and when there's a consensus and when there's a variety. Based on that alone you may tell if you'd like the book or not depending on your politics and the topic, and even more by the pro/con reviews.

Also what if 3 people really like some music and 100 hate it. Who's opinion is valid?

I say let everyone express themselves and vote as they like. Even STABs. Their natures will reveal themselves and thus be filterable.

I think problems may arise with too many users (including new and STABs) and/or not enough adequate input to gauge and sort them properly. And/or not coming up with algorithms to sort them adequately. But again, these would be expected.

Like I think that most news is a psyops, misinfo and gaslighting. And it can be rational, well sourced, reliable gaslighting.

That's why the opinions are 1 click and the "Topic Right-Tags" you click as many as are appropriate.

Your statements are more than just keywords or metatags.

 

Here's something I always intended to show in GUI illustrations: manual metatag input. Why be limited to 25 2525 or 25 million squares? Also, if there are 6000 squares (I don't think there are even that many subs on SaidIt), IMO it makes sense for a big chuck (2000?) to be custom user tags - and for users to share and trade grids. Yes it's huge process to learn and a huge GUI to develop, but the data ramifications are profound.

Also, if we really had our shit together we could tie it all into https://www.WikiData.org. Sure the sister companies are corrupt and maybe even WikiData is biased in ways, but it would be a huge leap forward by just adopting their classifications, categories, and hierarchy systems until they could be unbent.

MetaVote™ - Part 1: A Brief Outline Of A Potentially Revolutionary New GUI Data-Input Form (A tool for more quality information and profoundly deeper, stronger applications - including STABs management.) [Without images or animation to illustrate how simple it can be.] by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]zyxzevn 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Your system seems to become more complex, usually does not work in my opinion.
But it is great to have far more voting options to (1) give some feedback to the poster, and (2) rank the post in the list or category.


My new idea of ranking to rule out back-STABbers:
You have trusted people, like the friends option on saidit.
And the posts are ordered by how much points my friends gave the posts.
Additionally you can have friends of friends.. etc.
You can even share block-lists, so you will not see certain shills/trolls.

Additionally the admins have certain friends and they determine the ordering of the default list.
(A bit like "editor's choice" on Rumble.com )
This will make the site easier accessible for new people, and guide the site into the way the admins want. I think that a site needs some guidance to keep it from turning into a chaos of information.

This way STAB will not be visible on the site, even if they work together massively.

With keywords and categories, the information can be structures in a nice way.


With your voting you grade the quality of the information, but people put bias in the voting.
Like I think that most news is a psyops, misinfo and gaslighting.
And it can be rational, well sourced, reliable gaslighting.

Let's check some simple single-event subjects:
1. Gas attack in Syria
2. Julian Assange
3. Astronomy: Black hole image.
4. Physics: Fractional Quantum Hall Effect

Here are my answers, but you will not find many mainstream "reputable" sources that confirm this.
1. Hoax by White Helmets, many whistleblowers, researchers openly threatened by US.
2. Journalist, all charges are false and made up. Doom for real journalism.
3. Faked via maths, there is too much noise.
4. Complex topic, but it is not fractional, even though it seems fractional.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]fschmidt[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Blockchain is not the easiest solution. A blockchain would contain the history of all forums on the platform and this would be much too big if the platform is successful. Besides which the whole blockchain concept is pointless for forums. All you need is to be able to replicate data from one server to another. Then one server is the active one that your forum domain points to, while you can have a bunch of backups on other servers. If there is some problem with the primary server, just switch to some backup server.

Spam is a nasty problem with no really good solution. Basically each forum should be kept clean by its moderators. Tools to help with this can be added gradually to the software as modules.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]Bigs 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"No blockchain."

First, why no blockchain? That seems to be the easiest way to create truly decentralized systems that cannot be blocked or stopped at any single point?

Regarding this bit:

"Or if a server owner bans a forum, that forum can just move to another server."

To me, decentralized would mean it exists on multiple servers, and so any individual server owner can do nothing beyond not hosting it on their server, but that doesn't alter that other places still do host it.

My understanding is that the Ethereum network already offers this kind of thing, though I have no idea how one would implement it.

One issue, which Ethereum prevents by charging 'gas' fees, is that such a system can be attacked by just flooding it with bullshit spam. Indeed we've seen exactly that recently on this Saidit forum, where the front page is just spammed with gibberish. Try doing that on Ethereum or one of Ethereum's L2 chains and it will cost you a fortune, as every activity has a cost associated.

Obviously free, or nearly free, is nice, but it does come with that spam downside.

So:

  1. Why not use blockchain tech?

  2. How would you tackle spam?

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]Horrux 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nice. Always good to read from you, Node.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]Node 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

because of his stupid racism.

Do you also abhor breedism regarding canines? Is one type of bird literally no different in characteristics and abilities as any other bird? It's too bad you're a jew, because you otherwise have some interesting qualities.

Modern scum are shallow beasts with no understanding of religion or culture, so they judge others based on race.

When your category is labeled 'scum', of course they're going to have negative qualities. However, most racially aware people judge on individual and group behavior.

Separately, people who tolerate or support 'modern society' are contributing to the desecration and devolution of our species.

May Americans all suffer and die because they are all moronic modern scum.

Oh, you're 100% jew. Here is the individual and group behavior we were just talking about.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]Horrux 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Ah, the good old jewish ill faith. It never changes.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]fschmidt[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Your hero lost the war because of his stupid racism. Racist modern scum will lose for the same reason. Good riddance.

I plan to move to an area mostly populated by sensible whites, a Mennonite area in Mexico. May Americans all suffer and die because they are all moronic modern scum.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]Horrux 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

But as the Great Adolf Hitler said, "We have tried, and there is no way to separate the jewishness from the jew. They seem utterly inseparable, and they do not understand the fact of their own degenerate nature." You are a jew, therefore degenerate, and it is in your very nature. There's nothing you can do about it and pretending to not be a jew changes things, NOT ONE IOTA.

You are what you are: your soul is animated by demonic energies which are inseparable from whatever remnant of humanity they might possess. I don't hate any living being. Not even demonic-souled degenerate parasites. You know why? Because I AM FULLY HUMAN. I am not tainted by that degeneracy people like you foist on the world in one way or another, often unknowingly.

It's not your fault that you are a jew. I realize that. But so what.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]fschmidt[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, I am a moral and honorable person. Something the likes of you could never understand.

Let me explain. Modern scum are shallow beasts with no understanding of religion or culture, so they judge others based on race. White-skinned modern scum on the Left hate whites and love other races. White-skinned modern scum on the Right love whites and hate other races. Both are basically the same, simply modern scum. Traditional Europeans rejected Jews based on religion and culture, not race. And since I reject Judaism and Jewish culture, they would not have considered me a Jew. Traditional Europeans were good people. White-skinned modern scum are just scum.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]Horrux 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

No, I am a moral and honorable person. Something the likes of you could never understand.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]fschmidt[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah, so you are modern scum? Thanks for pointing it out. Duly noted.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]Horrux 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Ah, so you are a degenerate subhuman parasite piece of scum? Thanks for pointing it out. Duly noted.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]fschmidt[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I am sure they will love me since I am racially jewish.

Musing on ways to improve SaidIt and/or build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]fschmidt 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

We need to liberate the masses from their brainwashing.

No we don't. Just move away from the masses and watch them destroy themselves from a distance.

I will NEVER deny that until M7 starts evolving in a serious way.

Won't happen.

I agree, not to focus on the masses, but they need to be considered.

Yes, a good forum platform should appeal to the masses on their own terms. Just don't expect them to become enlightened.

Pros/cons as to whether segregation would actually improve things.

Just give forum owners whatever tools they want to deal with spam, and leave it up them which tools they use. In other words, this should not be decided at the platform level. Personally I don't need any tools since removing spam from my forums is easy enough.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]Horrux 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

We also have a good number of proper NatSoc membership, although I don't know how many of them are programmers.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]fschmidt[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Pretty much all programmers on SaidIt are modern scum, meaning members of depraved modern culture, so they love pointless complexity and evil generally, and hate simplicity and any good programming. So don't expect them to support anything that makes sense.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]Horrux 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well I am no expert, and there were many posts on the topic, so I might be linking you one of the bad ones. But you know, there is a search bar at the top right corner...

I'll ping u/Panzerfaust as he undoubtedly knows more than I do about this topic.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]fschmidt[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This makes no sense to me. The original web was distributed and simple. This IPFS just adds pointless complexity. The only real weakness of the original web was DNS which IPFS doesn't even address. My idea for social forums is very much like the original web, not like IPFS.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]Horrux 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]fschmidt[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know what was discussed. Can you post a link? Then I can answer.

My Vision for Social Forums by fschmidt in PhoenixForum

[–]Horrux 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is excellent. Would this work on a similar basis as the "distributed web" discussed elsewhere on saidit?

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Now you have admins. With power. I don't think it's avoidable. The ability to clone the forum with new admins is as far as the law allows.

Admins always have the power over the site, the code, the data, etc.

They can choose to be secret or be as transparent about judgement calls as possible. We may never know what they do behind the scenes. The only way to know is to co-host an instance of your own.

The problem is, if your system allows people to ban the illegal, it also allows them to remove the unwanted.

Yes. It's all about trust if you're not in full control. The illegal should not be open to inspection. The forum will be open to people to claim that their legit content has been censored and then people can leave to another instance if they don't trust the admin(s). The admins could check each other too. And if there's debate it can be settled with some kind of fair, open, and accountable social management systems.

Content from the other side will anger them. Content from their less radical allies seems like a better idea. Their radical faction would have no reason to ban it, everything is voluntarily, no conflict arises.

If it was 5 or 10 percent from "the other side" you could make it 10 or 20 percent from the "centrists" and 30 to 40 from "less radicals" too. Tweak the numbers as you see fit, perhaps under their council and/or protests.

If they don't want to get angry they can start their own instance for a perfect echo-chamber if they like, or they can just keep bitching - or maybe learn something from the other side.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

admins verify and it gets scrubbed or restored

Now you have admins. With power. I don't think it's avoidable. The ability to clone the forum with new admins is as far as the law allows.

encrypted media would need to come from the original source site

The problem is, if your system allows people to ban the illegal, it also allows them to remove the unwanted.

Radical factions are not entirely made up of radicals. Those who question can peak in secret. Besides, it wouldn't matter if it wasn't their site, and if it was they could tweak it as they see fit.

Content from the other side will anger them. Content from their less radical allies seems like a better idea. Their radical faction would have no reason to ban it, everything is voluntarily, no conflict arises.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

include a small percentage of the best rated content from the other side for opening minds

Radicals won't accept this. They only listen to their slightly less radical compatriots.

Radical factions are not entirely made up of radicals. Those who question can peak in secret. Besides, it wouldn't matter if it wasn't their site, and if it was they could tweak it as they see fit.

illegal content might be better managed if it were encrypted

In theory yes. But in practice, which authority would tolerate the existence of a server, or a network, filled with encrypted illegal content?

Who would know? Moreover, you wouldn't keep it long. People report it as illegal, it gets muted, admins verify and it gets scrubbed or restored because someone was wrong, intentionally or by accident.

and maybe unlocked only to be scrubbed

An interesting idea. If no community accepts the responsibility, just remove it. But what if some community is malicious? You could arrest its administration, but the content still exists. What now?

The encrypted media would need to come from the original source site who only holds the key, even if it has already been decentralized and shared. Anyone could report it to mute it, but only the source could unlock it or scrub it. After a time period (ie. a week) or a number of views (ie. a million) without being reported it would be pretty safe to say it's not illegal content and the key could be released. If one slips by somehow then there should of course be a way to scrub and report it to others sharing it.

If there are problematic trolls or communities, then report them to the authorities if you can trust them. Or if problems are common, make sure that the fray must earn their rights to post unfiltered as a civilian. If it's a community then filter them off your instance site.

It's not simple, but there's always a way.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

include a small percentage of the best rated content from the other side for opening minds

Radicals won't accept this. They only listen to their slightly less radical compatriots.

I do like the auto-archive all content idea.

Auto-archive is a nice name. Hard to argue against.

illegal content might be better managed if it were encrypted

In theory yes. But in practice, which authority would tolerate the existence of a server, or a network, filled with encrypted illegal content?

and maybe unlocked only to be scrubbed

An interesting idea. If no community accepts the responsibility, just remove it. But what if some community is malicious? You could arrest its administration, but the content still exists. What now?

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

where all removed content is available with a click, downvotes can't be abuse

I love this. I've been thinking about this too as it relates to my MetaVote idea. I was thinking that instead of hard echo chambers there might be a way to ratio their content to also include a small percentage of the best rated content from the other side for opening minds - thus hopefully bringing them together. I may share a text outline which would do it an disservice as it's a simple GUI interface too and also needs animation to really showcase how revolutionary it would be.

I do like the auto-archive all content idea. Decentralization and illegal content might be better managed if it were encrypted. All media would have to go through the forum that would unlock it, while being impossible for anyone to just look at the archives. Remove the key and it would then be locked away scrambled and anonymous forever, and maybe unlocked only to be scrubbed.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

An echo chamber where all removed content is available with a click, downvotes can't be abuse and moving to a slightly less radical faction unlocks more content with no downsides.

Decentralization is good. But all illegal content has to be removed. Or else. Even if all files have to be external, illegal content could be stored at obscure servers with no obvious owner. Can't sue them, will sue you.

An ability to download and clone all content could be useful though, for emergencies. I'm not advocating for literally one server, but the system needs to have the ability to remove illegal content without the ability to remove unwanted content.

Neutrals are those whom radicals want to recruit, not ban. They can interact with both poles, and subtly deradicalize them.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]AmericanMuskrat 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Cutting content includes cutting those who post and comment because of their content.

Just like on Mastodon and other decentralized platforms, echo chambers will form, as they're free to do so.

A central server is problematic as a target for perpetual attack. One shared federation is better, more flexible, and more resilient. Yes, some could vote democratically (with related problems), some could rule with an iron fist (with related problems), and some could have a trusted-team with fair, open, and accountable social management systems (with related problems).

I don't know of what neutral party you mean, but I like that it's all openly shared.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I hereby dub thee, American Princess Muskrat, now and forever, liberated from bother, and pig pens.

Now all you have to do is create your own decentralized instance to make it all come true.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]AmericanMuskrat 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I wish for my category to be royalty so all the peasant swine class may not bother me.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I'd be surprised if some factions didn't filter out and cut off some of the content they don't like

Why stop at cutting some content, why no cut people? And those who associate with them. And those who support them. And those who don't condemn them. The ability to share content isn't enough.

One server. Several sites rely on it. They ban different people. Vote for different content. Yet everything they create, is shared and can be used by a neutral party.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Lemmy is software for anyone, not just Leftists - unless you know something I don't.

IIRC /u/d3rr said there were now Alt-Right instances of Lemmy.

Most importantly SaidIt needs to evolve to survive the future.

Lemmy is well supported, but few support old-Reddit code. I don't know what the stats are.

Lemmy is decentralized. We could all co-host our own community - and ban STABs secretly like M7, or openly, or however you want on your own instance. Not all of our instances need to be open. Some "factions" could have dedicated filtration instances as "dangerous" proving grounds before being invited to the next level as outlined in this post.

No one likes tribalism, but it is too easy to introduce. If you don't shape the way, someone else will.

I agree. The worst will shape the way if they can - the corporatocracy.

I'm all ears for alternatives and solutions. Feel free to improve my ideas. That's why I'm putting them out there.

This is a discussion forum. IMO we should also be discussing our future instead of depending on and waiting for M7. M7 and D3 have brought us much thus far. We need to help them now too, IMO.

My factions would allow people to have completely different experience on one same site. They could even use different front pages with different addresses.

That may have been what M7 was thinking of. Sounds like decentralized instances sharing the same content, though I'd be surprised if some factions didn't filter out and cut off some of the content they don't like. Alternatively, ideally, if they all shared all the content then, if they must, they could create internal filters and generally keep the database complete and shared.

Several sites united in one.

IFTFY: Several separate sites united by one database sharing system - decentralized.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

so I don't expect you'll have much luck forming factions via participation

Lemmy is for leftists.

Creating good open forums is dangerous. I won't make one unless I'm forced to.

No one likes tribalism, but it is too easy to introduce. If you don't shape the way, someone else will.

My factions would allow people to have completely different experience on one same site. They could even use different front pages with different addresses. Several sites united in one.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Interesting "random idea".

I believe the data generated from my MetaVote™ concept could automatically ultimately determine factions and circles of common interests and such. The technocracy currently has all our data - meanwhile all we've got is 2 votes, some topical subs, and no metatags. This morning I finally explained the basics of MetaVote™ to /u/d3rr who can tell you honestly if he thinks MetaVote™ is a good idea or not. I guarantee it's a monster-load of work to develop and bring to the masses - but it's for a qualitative info-revolution for the people, assuming it were to catch on and/or not be suppressed to keep us stupid.

But that's a long way off - if it even goes public and/or gets off the ground.

I'm not a fan of tribalism nor division, despite the reality they exist. M7 has stated he'd like to start several other sites, for better or worse (without fair, open, and accountable social management systems). I've pointed out above that anyone can start their own mirror/fork. If anything, these new sites should be the factions that would fork off SaidIt (I like saying "fork off"). Unless you're referring to making a new tiered filter system.

I can't even get people to answer a survey or to join me in a weekly protest meme, so I don't expect you'll have much luck forming factions via participation. Most SaidIt folks want to be informed, not involved. IMO automatically generated tiers/factions seem best. Also, SaidIt generally aims to be non-partisan despite obvious allegiances of many and IMO that's one of the best features - so it would be a shame to spoil that.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Though I don't know who might want that, it's certainly a good additional custom preference/feature, if it were possible either in SaidIt/Lemmy code, or simply via keywords easily found in the sidebox and respected by ethical mirrors. In websites a decade or more ago we used have similar things to keep web-spiders from crawling over parts of your site, assuming they respected that.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Factions. The weight of a vote should depend on the faction of the voter.

Votes from an enemy faction should mean nothing. Votes from friendly or neutral factions could be worth less than the ones from one's own faction. A faction should be allowed to decide how much it values votes from every other faction.

Different factions may have different entry requirement, participation rules and rituals. All newbies should be placed in the newbie faction. A faction is necessary for voting. For personalization, people should be allowed to give any faction a value that differs from their own faction's settings.

For further personalization, for people marked as friends and enemies, the value of their votes should be counted as if they were members of these groups instead of their real faction. For even more personalization, provide users an ability to create more custom groups. Let them subscribe to custom groups created by other users. Let them assign mods for their groups.

Faction would reveal how users see themselves. Groups would show how users see other users. I'm not suggesting for this to be implemented on Saidit. Just a random idea.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]socks 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Wow - well-written. Perhaps initially, subs could opt in or out of this filtering method.

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]d3rr 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This user tagging stuff sounds pretty close to what RES can do: https://old.reddit.com/r/Enhancement/wiki/index/users/user_tagger

New Idea: Filtering STABs On SaidIt by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

/u/magnora7,
This is the new idea that I was talking about last week, very different than the fair social management stuff.

Sponsor Spotlight: A Secure Email That Can Withstand Quantum Computers (23:07) ~ Ben Swann by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Is this RAIDA (Redundant Array Of Independent Detection Agents) technology something worth considering for a next-gen forum?

One of the largest problems we face today are shills and bots attacking online forums. Discussion on how we can combat this problem. by icebong in PhoenixForum

[–]icebong[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So...

First first level : USER SIDE. User will be given tools to help filter though posts, users decide what kind of posts they choose to want to see, ie Show posts by users only over level 3.

Second level: MOD TEAMS. Mods can and will become corrupt over time. We all start off with the best intentions but nothing is ever guaranteed. Communites should default to the mod team that created the community, however, in the sidebar, anyone can start they own mod team for that particular community. That way, a user can check out what the information looks under another mod team, and even change their settings to see the community under the non default mod team.

Third level: MANA reputation. We talked about this. Beefed up reputation system.

In this way, it's harder for a central entity to control the narrative, as how the filtering of information is now much more 'decentralized'

One of the largest problems we face today are shills and bots attacking online forums. Discussion on how we can combat this problem. by icebong in PhoenixForum

[–]zyxzevn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree that the mana system could work ok.
I am even thinking about having multiple layers of trust networks, but do not know exactly how.

One of the largest problems we face today are shills and bots attacking online forums. Discussion on how we can combat this problem. by icebong in PhoenixForum

[–]icebong[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I completely agree we also need filter from the user side (front end).

One of the largest problems we face today are shills and bots attacking online forums. Discussion on how we can combat this problem. by icebong in PhoenixForum

[–]BadSprocket 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

shills & bots are a problem, but you can't reward or penalize them enough to go away. Just use your own filters, like you do with MSM or others. If mods get their hands too dirty, it becomes a full time job and then Reddit.

Musing on ways to improve SaidIt and/or build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I'd say great minds, but it's kinda obvious, not very complex, and importantly the hierarchy is very horizontal.

Musing on ways to improve SaidIt and/or build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]icebong 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah i like this level system, like in odysee.com, they just implemented this, and its easy to see how big or trust worthy and account is easily.

One of the largest problems we face today are shills and bots attacking online forums. Discussion on how we can combat this problem. by icebong in PhoenixForum

[–]icebong[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can give yourself reputation with 100s of alternative accounts.

This is known as a Sybil Attack which is the main problem that IOTA, as I have linked in another comment in this thread. The way they deal with this problem is by assigning each node (user) a weight (reputation) so that users with more weight are more trusted. It takes a lot of time and posting (for good actors) and a lot of money (buying up accounts on the internet) for the bad actors. So the CIA can buy a trusted account for 1000s of dollars, and the moment they start to spew out propaganda, and users report them , they will start to loose that reputation fast.

So iota says, More mana = more messages read. So, within the community, there is a natural distribustion of users. Say 10% off the top users of a community constribute to most of the posts. Something like that, i can't remember exactly. So with such a system, the higher mana you have, the higher you are on the 'font page'.

But yeah, trust is very important in todays systems. I think users need to 'earn' trust within that community. BUT still allows new users to have a say. So with low mana/trust, their comment/posting will be limited, as well as having a visible indicator (we know we can trust accounts that are less then 1 week old on reddit) . But instead of opening their profile, it should be displayed next tot their username...something like that.

More musing on ways to build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. Not a new concept. Thanks. I think I'll try it out.

More musing on ways to build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]AmericanMuskrat 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

https://cryptotabbrowser.com/en/ is a browser with a miner built in. No idea about it, just got an ad for it yesterday.

One of the largest problems we face today are shills and bots attacking online forums. Discussion on how we can combat this problem. by icebong in PhoenixForum

[–]fschmidt 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If moderators truly control their forums then they will have enough incentive to deal with this issue manually, and that is good enough.

Musing on ways to improve SaidIt and/or build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think that building a trust network is a continuous process.

Agreed!

But what is trust exactly?

Whatever you want it to be. It can even be meaningless to you. But if, via something like MetaVotes™, you create a data matrix with more qualitative information than just like/dislike then you can curate your own content.

If a hundred STABs are posting shit then you filter out most of them but keep rating their content that you do see in order to keep reassessing all the content. Also, with this filtration system the owner/admin of the decentralized instance can take out the trash as it becomes too much, ideally keeping the good ranked content but banning the bad actors - ideally all transparently if anyone needs to dig up the dirt. The ONLY content IMO that needs to be permanently deleted should be child porn. All words are harmless, but in combination and with intent some exceptions may apply, such as advocating violence which obviously must be hidden AND saved in case it ever needs to go to court - or to justify someone getting banned.

I know all of this requires serious coding, and I really doubt much or any of this could be SaidIt upgrades, which is why in part starting fresh may be better. Perhaps with an extant possibly decentralize forum with a wide support base of coders. The communities can and will come later, but as Elon Musk said something to the effect of, paraphrased: We can't just make a competitive product and expect to go from nothing to thriving - we need to make a vastly superior product to get people to migrate to us.

First you need a network for people that are contributing positively to the forum.

A separate network? Why? Just ignore the asstrolls. They may even inspire better defenses. Take in ALL good ideas regardless of source.

Or do you mean, Level 3 | Distinguished Users | trusted selections by M7 only | Green?

This can change when someone's mood changes due to an emotional/traumatic event.

Sure, some people slip up or slide downward. I remove people from my /s/Friends list and remember them better for it. There's no reason M7 could un-Green someone. They'd have to earn it back doubly, if they even cared. Most worthy people don't desire authority, IMO.

And how do you treat people that are interested, but mainly like to troll?

Let them troll until they prove themselves ban-worthy. TBD by the admin of the decentralized instance.

(Or instead of trolling want to push their weird opinion)

Unless the opinion is illegal, or if an admin is running a tribal site (conservative, liberal, libertarian, religious, etc etc etc) then there's no need to limit, censor, or ban. If people don't like it they can express it in their MetaVotes™. Also, IMO the MetaVotes™ algorithms should be 100% transparent so people don't have issues with how things are run. Further, I would LOVE for users, in preferences, to be able to program their own MetaVote™ "expressions" (a CGI term we used in Maya 3D software for equations that controlled things like rigs, dynamics, animation, shaders, etc - I did much of this animation with nulls, expressions, constraints, and f-curves). Obviously expressions would be expert level, above some advanced options, and much more than just basic subscribing to topics. IMO everything should have 3 or 4 modes, the 4th being plug and play default.

Then there is another kind of trust: Trust that we can communicate. People can be trusted in one area, but not in another. Usually because they are badly informed by propaganda. (Like Qanon or CNN) Which makes communication worthless. On the other hand they can have different real-world experiences that are different from what I know.

I think I understand what you mean here. MetaVote™ would provide much more qualitative data about the content than just like/dislike. And even if people are inauthentic, brainwashed, and/or otherwise limited their opinions will still be measured and the results will be MUCH more revealing. For example: On Amazon you can have a book that gets a bunch of 5 stars and even more 0 stars with virtually nothing between. Either the content is divisive (tribal, controversial, etc.) or there are trolls trying to make it unpopular - or maybe it's just good for some not for others. Knowing this gives us MUCH more information that a Reddit post with +2 (from +200 likes and -198 dislikes).

Musing on ways to improve SaidIt and/or build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]zyxzevn 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think that building a trust network is a continuous process.
But what is trust exactly?

First you need a network for people that are contributing positively to the forum.
This can change when someone's mood changes due to an emotional/traumatic event.
And how do you treat people that are interested, but mainly like to troll?
(Or instead of trolling want to push their weird opinion)

Then there is another kind of trust: Trust that we can communicate.
People can be trusted in one area, but not in another.
Usually because they are badly informed by propaganda. (Like Qanon or CNN)
Which makes communication worthless.
On the other hand they can have different real-world experiences that are different from what I know.

More musing on ways to build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I love it!

I think phones and all WIFI devices should be employed for B.A.T.M.A.N. (Better Approach To Mobile Adhoc Networking - multi-hop routing protocol decentralizing knowledge about the best route through the network. A network of collective intelligence is created - without central, singular, or globalized data (eliminating a need to share info to every node).)

Another thing I'd love to see, assuming blockchain and/or crypto is employed: browser-based crypto-mining. My computer, though not the latest nor greatest, is not doing much today, and it's on 24/7 for sharing. It might as well also be mining. Naturally this would have to be 100% open, transparent, and opt-in - with invite + donate links in the banner there should be no shortage of volunteers.

https://SaidIt.net/search?q=B.A.T.M.A.N.

Musing on ways to improve SaidIt and/or build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think it's that difficult.

As long as there is skepticism and anticipation of infiltration with are checks and balances lead by rational minds and open discourse I have faith the trust-network should be possible. More importantly, critically IMO, is that branches of trust be allowed to grow. If people disagree, that's fine and perhaps reason for distrust - but it doesn't mean anyone is wrong. Further, you may end up with a minority of legit voices against armies of STABs. Sure, echo-chambers may be formed, but with some algorithm tuning some overlapping should be encouraged to perpetuate ongoing reassessment processes.

Musing on ways to improve SaidIt and/or build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]zyxzevn 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I think that you want to build some kind of trust-network.
Which is a difficult problem, because even those can infiltrated.

One of the largest problems we face today are shills and bots attacking online forums. Discussion on how we can combat this problem. by icebong in PhoenixForum

[–]zyxzevn 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Reputation can be manipulated

You can give yourself reputation with 100s of alternative accounts. Or by infiltrating a site with a group. Or by buying old accounts or even stealing accounts.

Some forums seem to solve it by adding a paywall, but this does not mean that the information is any good. And it does not stop companies or intelligence from manipulating forums.

People with lots of reputation (or karma on reddit), tend to bring people the messages that they want to hear. It is not based on quality or truth.

Trust

I think it could work in some trust-network. Maybe the Mana system works that way.

There will be different networks that trust each other, but not different networks.

And trust depends on the topics. People tend to be good in one topic, but not so much the other. You may trust your relationship, but a good car-mechanic will know more about your car.

More musing on ways to build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]AmericanMuskrat 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Everything costs. Nothing is free

Not the original point, but this got me thinking. There's infrastructure in place with bandwidth available that's already paid for you can use, namely people's phones. We're all carrying around little computers with modems.

The app you download would also be the server, propagating a network that keeps growing. It wouldn't even necessarily need a network connection, depending on what sort of common access you can get to a phone's modem or if you'd need to go on top of another protocol. I mean fuck, even SMS could work. Better have unlimited messaging tho. Lol.

More musing on ways to build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

In the sidebox I added the 6 aspects I felt were different enough, though ultimately they're all interrelated. I could have added many more categories, including decentralization and security, but I figure most of that is under Software Development - way out of my league. I know what I'd like but I don't know the first thing about making it happen, the options, the pros/cons of them, various tactics, history of tech, various languages, etc.

IMO, database updates should be shared with IPFS, torrents, shards, and/or blockchain. Everything costs. Nothing is free. I would like to see next-gen forums have rewards for various interactions - but not overly complicated and rigged like Steemit is/was.

unconfirmed at first until a consensus can verify them

YES! I was thinking about this for my MetaVote™ idea. Though not the "verify" part exactly so much as a combo of soft statistics rather than a hard yes/no on/off kind of binary thing. With MUCH more metadata we can actually see more accurately what the content actually reflects - even if shills are artificially manipulating it. Maybe I just need to take a week of to whip up some illustrations to show folks what the fuck I'm talking about, then another week or few to animate it, with feedback for a first version of a virtual demo.

Also, I really need a patent lawyer badly. I've been too lazy and procrastinating, and I have no money.

More musing on ways to build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]AmericanMuskrat 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Getting down to brass tacks, isn't the heart of a decentralized system that multiple, sometimes untrusted nodes are in the network. Blockchain deals with this by creating a cost to do transactions, and assuming at least 51% of all nodes will be benevolent.

If you go a different route the issue becomes how to send what amounts to database updates through an untrusted network. Different method, same problem.

Hmmm, posts could unconfirmed at first until a consensus can verify them, as the individual hubs aggregate the db diffs.

More musing on ways to build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]zyxzevn 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Librarians are analysts or information collectors

Everyone can be a librarians. The idea is that they keep track of information and order it.
I realize that the concept of a librarian is much more complex.

Almost all people are shifting information around, and not really adding new information.
How many people are really witnesses themselves?
And how many are changing/selecting the information to push their own opinion/agenda.

A lot of people are analyzing the information (like James Corbett). Most people are not so good at it. I think I should look better at the different roles.

What about crazy people?

I have now a FlatEarther posting nonsense to me.
Out of context.(It is called forum sliding).
Where do I place him?
Personally I think that he is a troll/agent, but you never know.

In similar sense we have: Qanon sheep, Antifa-fascists,
NeoNazi-Trolls, Men pretending to be female, activists, etc.

Viewpoints:

With viewpoints, I mean that you have some assertions in one viewpoint that you keep in the articles or replies.
People often have ideas that are hard to talk about, like religious dogmas or scientism blindness.
So instead of letting them discuss with each other, I thought it would be nice to have them each build their own logical basis.
And you can add replies or questions "in the viewpoint" of the original poster.
(Or add a different viewpoint in a different branch.)

The idea is that people can have discussions within their own logic system.
And can switch from one logic system to the other.

If a person's logic system becomes too complex or too weird, the person can change his mind. And go for a better logic system.
My idea is that people can go from dogmatic to a bit more open minded.

More musing on ways to build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Never heard of a "graph database" before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_database This sounds like it may be perfect to drive my MetaVote™ concept that would replace/integrate votes, subs, metatags, emojis, status, ranking, etc etc etc.

Is "bridging" a real term? I just made it up for lack of a better term.

I don't know enough about databases or A.I. to know which should be employed for this, but I would expect that natural divisions and echo chambers would evolve, whether it's the left vs right, trolls or shills or bots vs others, or whatever - I would hope that if these relationships could be openly analyzed and the relationships exposed I might hope that developed tools and people might be able to sort it out, root out infiltrators, and have their preferences and statistics protect them. Especially with MetaVote™.

MetaVote™ could bring in VASTLY more qualitative information regarding users habits - information that's hidden from us all. I would LOVE to have all the statistics be completely open and transparent as a whole, yet have individuals stats be private except available only to them. We should have control of our own info and profiles - not the Technocracy.

With this open information and relationships we could see the swarms including the inevitable shills. Any shills that build up "authenticity" and trust will have to behave properly - thus doing no damage. When they activate they'll be sorted with among like minds and thus expose themselves through their patterns of behaviour. SaidIt may have pattern recognition that I'm unaware of, but it's certainly not open, nor can it be very complex with only 2 votes.

Because they're exposed their money and numbers can't save them.

Love the token ideas. One of my pitch proposals is for a community-based webstore. I don't even have a moderatly catchy working-title for it yet. Not just for SaidIt but it might include WikiSpooks, content creators, and users. I've already seen content creators team up with their stores and it might be wonderful to have a federation of cooperating stores that aren't just determined to only make a profit so much as bring awareness and options. In addition to your great ideas, I think 3D printing, CNC machining, DIY, etc. I hadn't thought of it as a classifieds/Craigslist/Kijiji thing but I suppose that might be good too.

IMO, just as the forum content would be separate from the MetaVote™ that would organize it, I would expect that the tokens would be in a separate module, and further removed the store would be on a different website with bridging to it like WikiSpooks and PeerTube sites - separate but bridged.

For my MetaVote™ concept, regarding each post and comment, I would have 2 categories. On the left would be a content qualitative assessment with dozens (or hundreds) of options rather that just 2 vote options - but you only get a single click. On the right would be a content topical assessment with the same special GUI offering dozens (or hundreds) of options, like metatags and/or subs - with numerous clicks to better categorize the content. There's MUCH more to this categorizing side and GUI too, including another concept already in wide use, yet not on forums.

Importantly the MetaVote™ concept and GUI could be applied to MANY other aspects of this forum (including your preferences, "tribes"/viewpoints, subs, friends, sets, faves, authors/creators/sources, dates, etc) and applications beyond.

I would LOVE for people to be rewarded for curating content and organizing everything. Pattern recognition would be critical here to separate the shills from others, and just as people could choose what topics (like subs) they wish to view, they could also choose to turn on/off certain topics and patterns. Imagine a toggle switch to see what everyone thought to seeing what people "like me" thought - and then comparing. You could then see the divisions, comparable to Amazon ratings with extreme love/hate sometimes or other "normal" spreads or clear opinions on the qualities and topics.

Yes, "library" is a great term and analogy. I should employ it. IMO librarians would not be necessary as the pattern divisions should distinguish the "good" from others (a simplistic description of complexity) and with decentralized sites and owners' trusted teams (as I've outlined elsewhere) the unwanted could be marginalized (or even ejected) to promote quality content. "Librarian category organizers" or GUI template makers could also present their best efforts to be used by the many.

I also have a specific simple GUI idea about how to "correct" topic labels which ties into the pattern divisions.

Viewpoints is part of the "topics" side if you mean labeling the type of political content or whatever. I'll have to show you for it to make sense. Plus there are many variations and combinations on my ideas to be narrowed down - or maybe include them all and let the users set their own GUI preferences.

I need sleep so consider this rambling potential for a rough draft of something. I know I was often vague and kept many things mysterious. The simplicity is in the GUI.

Phoenix Forum by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks! I'm already on LBRY/Odysee. I've posted stuff from there, and have it listed in /s/DecentralizeAllThings/wiki

* "never censor it."

I still have concerns about buying popularity. Then again, there are even obvious concerns here on SaidIt without rewards.

Phoenix Forum by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]icebong 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Second project I want you to check out, is how www.odysee.com created a youtube alternative based off the blockchain. They did it right! Check it out. You have a wallet, they give you free crypto so the user will never put their own money in, that answers a question u had on a different post) Users can give content creators they like crypto as a tip. Everything is stored on the blockchain so you can censor it. Really nice project that works.

How to build a DAO [Decentralized Autonomous Organization] on Colony [with staked crypto voting] (34:25) ~ Colony by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This OP video was discovered here: /s/SaidIt/comments/7hv3/have_you_noticed_the_huge_number_of_new_users_we/s7x4

Great ideas, though initially I felt like the crypto could somehow be gamed, the excellent demo video squashed those concerns.

More musing on ways to build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]fschmidt 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I reject Judaism and the crazy rabbis. In fact I hate Judaism. I follow the Old Testament.

More musing on ways to build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]pcpmasterrace 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

You're not allowed to write during Shabbat.

More musing on ways to build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]zyxzevn 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Start with a " graph database".. you will be amazed what it can do.

This allows to build hierarchies based on all kinds of relationships. Normal databases just allow the predefined relationships (kind of).

With a graph you can add bridging very easily, metatags, categories, archiving, monetization/rewards, etc.

Strong search:
Strong search needs its own graph database, so you can have relationships between similar words.
One step further you need trained neural networks (AI). I think google uses a combination of both.

I think it would be good to start with monetization, but starting as a small donation. And this gives you tokens that you can spend to give support. should be different from votes so Bill Gates does not dominate the forum. A money barrier prevents most trolls and other attackers.

Some ideas about money:
And the tokens can be used to buy small stuff from other people, so it can become trading money. This small stuff can be: t-shirts, books, photographs/posters, CDs, seeds, vitamins, food, advice, training etc. (only legal stuff) Things can easily be traded with people like money. This money does not even need to leave the platform. If I got 400 tokens, I can buy a t-shirt from you or get advice from a lawyer student.
If the money leaves the platform, there can be a " fee" to support the site.

How to organize information:
1. Clear keywords (like subs?)
2. Categories organized like a tree (with some overlap)
3. People can vote for keywords and categories (where does the post fit the best?).
Only upvotes with funny/love/nice/insightful/ ... etc.
4. People (in librarian role) can organize related information, bring it together like a summary.
They create a channel of organized information, like a library.
5. Information is marked as short-time (news), medium-time (events), long-time (history, news,

You can subscribe to both the creators and the librarians.
And to keywords, and to categories.

People can manage a certain category, like a librarian.
And this is very similar to a moderator of a sub-saidit.

Admins can help to promote certain librarians so they can dominate the mood and information on the site.
They can also help to organize the categories and keywords better.
Information with the wrong categories or keywords can be moved / altered.

Viewpoints?
I also think that there can be "view-points" instead of " key-words"
If people come with very different/weird ideas (qanon?), they can join a certain "view-point" .
You can have more view-points, switch the view-point or ever create a new one.
This is to help people to filter if they want to. Or to see that discussions are not worth the time.

More musing on ways to build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]fschmidt 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I will try to write a complete response during shabbat when I have more time. Anyone interested in this topic should subscribe to this sub and come back to this thread over the next few days.

More musing on ways to build a better Next-Gen Forum. by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Having relocated this discussion (cc /u/d3rr, /u/fschmidt), I'm responding to this new OP's second comment...

I don't think I really have much more profound to contribute on the what's covered in this OP.

I've briefly outlined in my first Phoenix Forum post about planning for the future - all of which can certainly be dissected in detail, but I have some other pitches to compile and present too. I'm not a programmer at all - but I can speak more on the other 5 of its 6 vectors and I could animate a previsualization to inspire folks and leave those capable to actually build it.

I don't demand a blockchain, especially if impractical or pointless, but I do have certain criteria that a next-gen forum MUST include or I'm simply not interested in working on anything that isn't striving for it's maximum potential considering all of our freedom is at stake against the corporatocracy and their inevitable strong A.I. Obviously not all "modules" need be immediately active, but we should try to anticipate things in framing the architecture - plumbing, electrical, HVAC, fiber, etc.

  • Decentralization (and "bridging" to other non-forums like WikiSpooks, PeerTube, etc)
  • Open full archiving/backup/sharing (download, torrent, etc)
  • Strong search
  • Strong categorization (metatags, categories, etc)
  • Crypto/rewards
  • Many more I've forgotten (I need sleep, didn't get much last night)

Phoenix Forum by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Hey! Just found this. Thanks!

Phoenix Forum by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]zyxzevn 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Just posted these ideas for improvement:
https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/7fpp/i_am_back/s0oe

Phoenix Forum by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for the feedback!

I wouldn't expect any next-gen forum we create to compete with Reddit for quite some time, partially due to it being so entrenched and established, partially due to the corporate media only referencing it as if none others existed (much like the pop-recognized brand names of Facebook, Twitter, Wikipedia, and YouTube), and partially because it will take YEARS for any specialized content like /s/MaxHeadroom to accumulate enough posts to be worthy of comparison, regardless of how much is censored. However, just as it wasn't futile to start SaidIt, I don't think developing the next thing is either - even if it takes 20 years to accumulate.

Your questions are excellent.

With some Libre-Festos (name subject to improvement) to lay down the fundamental philosophies and purposes (and maybe some clear linguistics for understandable communications) for future referencing (akin to people always referencing the Constitution), the Team can always refer back to their "mission statements". The wide pool that makes up the Team would determine how they self organize, the rules they set for themselves, how they add or subtract members, and for what reasons. ALL of this would be 100% transparent in the open, and the masses could weigh in too. It would be much harder to be corrupt if people were calling out your bullshit. It's not impossible there could be some long-term infiltrators who would play the part until they decide to try to subvert things. With everything backed-up, downloadable, and decentralized, the corrupt should never be able to stop the righteous-corruption-resistance that would be spread out over countless indie-hosted instances.

Importantly, the first Teams will be critical. In fact, I would expect that several tribal teams would emerge. It's easy enough to list a few: Liberal, Conservative, SJWs, Alt-Right, AssTrolls, and Non-Partisans, among others. I would expect different ways of doing things. IMO we need to first look at all the things they agree on and share in common to be the baseline, with flexible customizable options to tailor for each tribe.

I agree that votes don't mean much, other than people noticed them. There are countless brilliant posts that go unnoticed. Further, a lame dad-joke can get the same votes as the most insightful post. The MetaVote™ concept I have in mind, along with the GUI, should revolutionize things and usher in simple yet qualitative new dimensions to distinguish content. (I like using the TradeMark because it's funny, and because I believe it could be truly revolutionary.) I really hate being so mysterious about it, but I'll need to illustrate and make a brief animation it to explain what I mean and how simple it will be for the user, yet complex in execution. To explain it in text only would do it a huge disservice.

Democracy is NOT always the answer. For example, here on SaidIt I wouldn't trust it. I am biased. I would never allow Socks or Chipit on my Team, though I suspect they might have enough fans to be elected. More importantly, IMO, would be the Manifestos that would clearly define the fundamental goals and objectives. Furthermore, I have deeper ideas about "Manifesto-Nesting" that I will go into eventually.

Obviously I can't do everything. I cannot code. As I do now, on our devices and this site, I will have to trust the code, built by others. /s/FLOSS is the only way to do this. My list below of other critical criteria needs to be considered WHILE planning and building, NOT as an afterthought. To add these features after it's built would not be efficient, elegant, and could be insecure, problematic, or even impossible.

  • Archiving / Blockchain / Shards / Torrents
  • Crypto / Rewards / Statistics
    • Not sure if these are all tied together.
    • Statistics is a whole other conversation, including how things are MetaVote ranked, privacy, transparency, etc.
  • Decentralization
    • Indie-Servers for self-controlled environments (ie. home, work, car, etc.)
      • Plug & Play / Basic / Advanced / Expert
  • Disciplinary System (perhaps even without admin)
  • /s/FLOSS = Free/Libre Open-Source Software
  • Forum Functionality
  • Modes
    • PC / Mobile / TV / Other
    • Plug & Play / Basic / Advanced / Expert
    • Light / Dark / Other
    • Default / Disability
    • Simple Customizations / CSS Themes
  • Searchability
  • Transparency
  • User Preferences & Vanity Projects
  • Wiki (Much more robust than Reddit/SaidIt, ideally like MediaWiki, perhaps better.)

Maybe I'm talking nonsense but coding these aspects to be separate modular systems may be beneficial, to be housed and interacting within an overall architecture module feeding an output GUI module. Swapping out modules and/or being flexible to introduce new modules may be a good way for the project to evolve over the years.

This is just off the top of my head. I'm guessing I missed some.

Phoenix Forum by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Reddit without crazy admins was close to perfection. Its specialized subs are the best. If not for its admins suddenly cancelling gender differences, I would still be there. Even with censorship, it has no rivals. Because freedom.

Once your democratically elected team is established and starts securing its position, would they have to play with immigration/emigration of loyal/disloyal users, or will you just let them openly ban politically wrong people? Are you going to force them to rely on selective justice to justify repressions despite being democratically elected?

The problem with 1-10 votes is that I don't know how much I like it. I just don't. I can upvote relevant posts and downvote spam, but anything above this becomes stupidly hard to calculate.

In case a government of democratically elected demagogues drives away the coding team in the name of equality, who would manage the code?

Phoenix Forum by JasonCarswell in PhoenixForum

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Not immediately critical, as I'll be referencing this post again soon, I hope to establish these ideas in our collective SaidIt consciousness overlapping several other forthcoming concepts. This is one of several building blocks.

If it were critical I'd post on a weekday around 1-2pm Eastern Time. All other times and weekends are a crapshoot whether SaidItors will even notice.