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[–]magnora7[S] 43 insightful - 5 fun43 insightful - 4 fun44 insightful - 5 fun -  (56 children)

Then sane comments that call out the nonsense are downvoted:

https://voat.co/v/whatever/3099068/17411620

https://voat.co/v/whatever/3099068/17411920

Voat is overrun with shills, and white supremacists who can't tell they're surrounded by shills. Voat has a lot of free speech, but very little moral backbone despite all the grandstanding they do. I guess that's what happens when you let white supremecist neo-nazis literally take over your site and run it for their own benefit. They'll cheer on murder as long as the people killed have the skin color and religion they don't like.

Disgusting.

This is why voat can't be the next reddit. This is why we had to build saidit, to give people a 3rd option, because one didn't really exist. Free information for those who aren't completely lost to extremist ideology. Which is why this site used to be called antiextremes.com back in the day

[–]EndlessSunflowers 17 insightful - 5 fun17 insightful - 4 fun18 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks again for saidit. I've been using it frequently.
I don't know if many people are letting you know that we appreciate it, but we do!

[–]magnora7[S] 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

You're welcome! A couple of people have mentioned they appreciate it, and it means a lot to hear that after the hundreds of hours of work d3rr and I have each put in to saidit so far.

[–]Icalasari 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I also have to say I'm impressed. So far the only replacement I found was dread, but that's on the darkweb so it's a bit more out of the way and as such could never be a replacement unless the internet itself is cracked down on and the wild west days completely end (so like... a couple years, tops :u). I ESPECIALLY love the transparency and how you dealt with the downvote issue and the issue of upvotes rarely going to the good posts instead of the funny/topical posts

Already have a few subs in mind when my account ages enough

[–]iufewal 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

As one of the extremists, I'm not sure if I agree with the analysis of Voat as being a place taken over by Neo-Nazis. I would argue that Voat was a place where a normal, decent userbase grew from shared experiences into what they are now.

Voat was certainly not in its original form full of white supremacists; in fact, I would argue that the majority of its userbase actually came from fairly tame places; /r/fatpeoplehate, and so on. For a long period of time, Voat contained a userbase much like Reddit's, with the distinction being that they held a deepseated suspicion of everything and anything which smacked of censorship. Anything which was "censored" was automatically viewed as "one of us", a fellow victim of an injustice they all suffered, and someone to be welcomed with open arms.

It was in this climate that Reddit began to crack down upon what you call "extremists"; but the Voat userbase didn't see it that way. They saw themselves in these "extremists", not necessarily because they saw a connection in political ideology, but because they saw a shared experience. The treatment which these "extremists" had suffered at the hands of the administration was sufficient penance for any wrongheaded views they might hold, and Voat, the ever-compassionate, would be willing to lend an ear and a voice to what they had to say.

You can almost see why this idea would be appealing even to people who care little for political ideology; it was a chance to demonstrate their superiority over their erstwhile tormentors, while at the same time a chance to spite the very same people by giving a platform to those they sought to deplatform. Had Reddit banned /r/chapotraphouse or any sort of communist subreddit, Voat would have just as eagerly jumped at the chance to the support of the far left. That ship has probably sailed by now, but still, the claim that Voat was / is an extremist site doesn't sit right with me at all. It has always been what it still is: A free-speech fundamentalist site where censorship on the grounds of political opinions (no matter how vile or repulsive) is the first enemy, even before anything else.

[–]magnora7[S] 18 insightful - 3 fun18 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 3 fun -  (20 children)

I agree completely with your synopsis, and I have been using voat since it was called whoaverse. It was good back then.

But the way it is now... it's hard to deny there is a serious serious culture problem. Literally praising terrorists and super-racist low-information posts regularly making the front page. Even if it is bot/shill activity, it makes the site completely suck to use.

And if you go against the voat hivemind, you get downvoted, and then you can't downvote stuff, and it makes a feedback loop that has led to this ridiculous super-hateful echo chamber where one ideology basically took over.

As soon as stormfront got ahold of most mod positions on voat about 3-5 years ago or so, it's slowly been getting worse and worse. I love voat and what it stands for, but let's not deny the character of the current mainstream voat content is very full of hate and race-based ideology. If it were intelligent debates about that, that'd be one thing, but it's 90% knee-jerk hate these days. It's low-information anger being spewed, while those in real positions of power are basically ignored and instead we get to see a "Elizabeth Warren is a fake indian" post for the 1000th time. Valuable stuff is there, but it's often lost in the noise of the culture that overtook it.

I felt like voat was supposed to be the chosen one to save us from reddit. Which is why I felt so let down when it got so taken-over. Which is why we had to make saidit. So in a way, I am kind of thankful voat got taken over or else none of us would be using this site right now.

[–]FictionalSalad 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I joined Voat and agree totally. It's an echo chamber, but one that is incredibly good about maintaining the racist and hate filled userbase. The limit to the number of upvotes, and the limiting of the number of downvotes makes it incredibly difficult if not impossible for anyone who is not well-established on the site to have any sort of meaningful discussion.

I know exactly why it's happening, why people post the amazingly hate-filled stuff they do. The whole idea is to drive away anyone sensible. and I don't care because it works, and I'm not going to have my name or any thing tying me that website. So I just deleted my account after about six hours and said fuck this cesspool.

it isn't even about censorship, it's about decent people saying these comments are not appropriate and we disagree with them. But you can't do that because the site is not structured that way. Voat is dying anyway so it'll just be a matter of time until it goes under.

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The whole idea is to drive away anyone sensible.

Yeah I agree, it's intentional for this reason. But there are also many useful idiots who honestly believe it and think they are in good company.

Your last paragraph is exactly why we had to make saidit. Voat isn't going to work.

[–]Bompf 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Partially, partially people simply see the insanity of this clown world we live in and can't take it any more. People get angry when the world around them refuses even a basic acknowledgement of their grievances.

[–]Troll 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Stormfront is full of weirdo WN 1.0 boomers. What infected voat was coontowners and 4channers.

Some of the mods on coontown intentionally bred a low-quality environment for ego-purposes, and it led to voat having a low-quality userbase.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

IMO Those other groups came after the stormfront invasion had taken root, which laid the foundation for what came next. By the time it stopped being whoaverse and became voat, they already had their teeth in it. That was years before coontown got banned on reddit. You're probably right about 4chan (specifically probably /pol/) though

[–]Troll 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Stormfront was never really relevant and doesn't have the organizational skills. 4chan moreso. Just because they had a how-to guide posted there doesn't mean they actually did anything.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

They were back in 2009 or so when voat started getting taken over, I remember it was quite sudden. No racism, then the next day everything is white nationalism, and it never went back

[–]Troll 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Oh, in 2009? Voat is that old? Maybe I'm wrong then. I'd still say it was the 4channers though. Though they're extremely retarded. And I was a founder of CT LOL.

The IRC people were a lot more fun and more intelligent. Did you know evalion came out of coontown?

[–]magnora7[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yeah the 4channers probably came around the same time as the stormfront guys and it led to an unholy marriage lol

[–]Troll 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Are you sure they were from stormfront? I have a difficult time of thinking of them as being organized. They're certainly unintelligent, but I mostly viewed it as autistic 4channers.

[–]Bompf 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

/pol/ suffered from the fact that any forum in which people can freely discuss ideas will naturally become racist, nationalist, and conservative due to the wealth of available evidence pointing in that direction.

[–]Troll 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Well, right-wing. I never found /pol/ all that insightful, but I was doing what they were doing before they were around, and better.

[–]Bompf 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Probably. Good job. How did some one with a last name like Goldberg end up joining our cause? I'm curious.

[–]Troll 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don't ask me. I was the one bitching about his antics in modmail. It was GreatApeNiggy who modded him.

[–]useless_aether 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

but a good thing about voat are their pizzagate related subs, they are doing real, valuable research

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Copypaste them here.

[–]Alduin 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm not sure if I agree with the analysis of Voat as being a place taken over by Neo-Nazis

I don't think it was taken over by Nazis, but definitely made a safe harbor for Nazis by paid shills. There was no kindred spirit with these people back with the first wave of users flooded in with the banning of FPH and Niggers. Back then all they wanted was a place to speak freely. Then along came the shills, which were easy enough to spot - they made half the posts and called everyone who criticized them a shill. They simply flooded the site with Nazi content until the only users that stayed were Nazis. They also made clear to any new users that they were not welcome there. These are common intelligence/law enforcement tactics for creating a honeypot.

[–]magnora7[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think it was taken over by Nazis, but definitely made a safe harbor for Nazis by paid shills.

I agree, I think it was a little of both though.

[–]Greedeater 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

From what I've seen, I tend to agree as well.

Bout 4 odd year ago when Eddit really started swinging the banhammer, folk looked for an alternative. I was one of em, won't lie - abhor censorship meself. That's why we went over to explore Voat more fully, started the sub and transferring of content and such. Further we went looking though, the worse we realised the crowd was; it was /b/ and /pol/ combined with an unhealthy mix of Alt Right. Think we hung about for 3 months or so? Decided to stick with what we know and went back to Eddit.

When WPD and Gore got banned this week, Tej n I went back to Voat with the intention of a landing spot for the 500k odd users that suddenly had no sub. Bloody hell, it was basically a caricature of what people think 4Chan is. Almost like they are just to out edgelord each other. Me, I've been around the Chan's for quite since roughly the Habbo raid, so didn't bother me that much.

Then I realised it would bother our old users, most definitely.

So, after 12 minutes of Mod activity there totalling one post and 3 comments, we got nuked from all our modspots after the Voat WPD started Reeeeing. Out the window with that then, haha. Had a look around again at the places I used to be subbed to and... Yeh. It might have pulled the crowd, but definitely kept em, and is basically akin to their own echo chamber that most folk complain about with Left leaning crowd. Nuked me account, came here.

As for here, I like it immensely so far. Feels very 2010 Reddit.

[–]magnora7[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Almost like they are just to out edgelord each other.

That's pretty much a perfect description of what's wrong with voat.

Thanks for telling your story. After years of searching for alternatives myself, it led to the creation of saidit because all the alternatives just sucked. I don't really feel at home on any of them except saidit anymore. Voat was so far to one extreme, and then reddit is so far to the other extreme on the main subs, that we had to make a 3rd option. This site actually used to be called antiextremes.com for that very reason.

It just seems possible to have a place with real info that isn't a pit of hate. I saw it with the first 5 years of reddit and the first year or two of voat/whoaverse, so I know it's possible and we hope saidit can bring that spark back.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a very interesting comment.

Someone engineered and deployed a successful divide and conquer political strategy.

[–]Bompf 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In any structure where free debate and discussion is permitted, extremist right-wing ideologies will naturally evolve as a result of all available evidence. The best arguments tend to win.

[–]solder0 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm really glad that I found saidit. :) And I really miss the voat that I signed up for way back when. It's cancer now.

[–]magnora7[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed, I miss the days when voat was still whoaverse, and also how reddit was in 2007-2010 or so. That was really the golden era of both those sites.

I think saidit's golden era is coming soon. We are lucky to be able to learn from the mistakes of both reddit and voat, because they both failed in different ways. Reddit through censorship, and voat through cultural takeover

[–]Jesus 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Yup, shills and honeypots. I'm fine with people who are nationalists and think whites are the best race. As long as they do not genocide anyone or kill people.

[–]four_leaf_tayback 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Is it possible that when people are "forced" to voat that shills go into full offputting racist mode? My limited experience with voat followed pizzagate and I was pretty amazed by how every comment was ludicrous speed racist. In retrospect I raise an eyebrow.

Also, there are way more than 3 options... maybe not with a reddit interface/voting/username skeleton but yeah

[–]magnora7[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes I think the bots (and probably many genuine users too) kick up the hyper-racist shilling when new users are flooding voat. I think the genuine users see it as a "shittest" for a lack of a better word, and the bots are doing it to drive sane rational people away from information that isn't limited.

[–]Orangutan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

did you get the idea for /s/whatever from Voat? Don't remember that being a subreddit over at Reddit. I suppose the downvote equivalent here is a no vote because not all things you disagree with are funny.

[–]wizzwizz4 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It was called /r/reddit.com, and it was deleted. You're right about the no vote; if you ignore the things you don't like, you don't feed the trolls. It's really quite clever.

[–]magnora7[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I must've, yeah. I just like having a catch-all dumping ground for random stuff, especially for early on here.

You're correct that the downvote equivalent here is a no-vote, because a fun vote gives +1 and a insightful vote gives +2 karma, so the worst you can give is +0 by ignoring it. Or you can report it to mods if it really doesn't belong

[–]Alduin 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I've read this before I think from you, and I don't really understand what you mean. You are creating a space for non-extreme content, right? So first of all how do you define that? Secondly, with the content being user generated, what are you going to do if you have an extremist user or extremist sub?

Can you please go into more detail about specifically how you plan to make this site different?

[–]magnora7[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

So first of all how do you define that?

By the pyramid of debate, check out the site rules: https://saidit.net/s/SaidIt/comments/j1/the_saiditnet_terms_and_content_policy/

If something is so extremist it's repeatedly not adding value as per the pyramid of debate, then it'll be removed.

[–]Alduin 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

So if I just agree with you all the time, my content will be removed? How about if I'm just sharing news or memes or whatever and not engaging in debate at all?

I hope you can understand my point here. You're putting an awful lot of eggs in a basket of obscurity and limited use cases, in my opinion. This pyramid is only about debating. How that relates to extremist views still illudes me.

[–]magnora7[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It's more about judging the content of their character.

If you're constantly shitposting, then you probably will end up doing lots of ad-hominims, which I can point out as the bottom of the pyramid, for example.

This pyramid is only about debating. How that relates to extremist views still illudes me.

The site is for discussion, and those not discussing in good faith will be removed. It's not complex, don't try and make it so.

We simply cannot map out every edge case, and even if we did, then we've just created a very well-defined set of boundaries for trolls to exactly avoid. More rules doesn't mean a better system. Reddit was clear evidence of this. Hell, even US law is evidence of this.

At the end of the day, if you like saidit use it. If you don't, don't use it.

I don't intend to let this place turn in to voat, nor do I intend for it to become reddit. We hope to learn from the mistakes of both.

If you have a better plan or ruleset, I'm all ears. We're always trying to improve.

[–]Stoner 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

This pyramid is only about debating. How that relates to extremist views still illudes me.

The site is for discussion, and those not discussing in good faith will be removed. It's not complex, don't try and make it so.

I've had many interesting and civil discussions with people who have extreme views. Extremist views could very well be "I like to eat babies and would like to create a very polite community of children torturers where we can discuss our hobby in accordance with the pyramid".

and those not discussing in good faith will be removed. It's not complex, don't try and make it so.

Whose measurement of good faith do we use as a basis for judgment, since it's an ultra-subjective definition?

we've just created a very well-defined set of boundaries for trolls to exactly avoid. More rules doesn't mean a better system. Reddit was clear evidence of this. Hell, even US law is evidence of this.

All countries have laws, including those with the highest happiness rating. The US law example is interesting, seeing how I'm from Scandinavia - an area often held as an opposite to the US when it comes to at least correctional systems.

We have laws, but compared to the US they're based on the interest of the people, not the elite. We have correctional systems, but compared to the US they have different goals. It's not about proper laws or not, it's about good or bad laws and who they're good or bad for.

Right now I'm still seeing how the saidit laws are intentionally obscured so the rulers can ultimately give people the "death penalty" based on their subjective and somewhat moralistic views.

At the end of the day, if you like saidit use it. If you don't, don't use it.

That's a fair ultimatum.

If you have a better plan or ruleset, I'm all ears.

Make well-defined and thought out rules, publicly display them and enforce them evenly. Don't unban those who've you kicked out for a month of spamming and don't give a shit if the price is that one or two bitter assholes goes around and badmouths saidit.

There's about to be a shitload of new people whose experience of saidit is that there's no clear rules and the admins enforce them by asking people to be polite. What do you think @alduin is going to say to his friends when he asked about posting memes and your answer is that if you think it's shitposting, he's going to get banned?

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You gotta see this baby eater video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93kkEMIXu5s It's not so bad after you watch it a few times.

I was equally skeptical with lots of questions when I first came here. You're not going to find better answers seeking more rules. There are no better answers without looking at those who were dealt with to show by example. Ask m7 about the 3 times he had to ban folks and the one he's considering now, and why he's hesitant, what the pros and cons are, etc. Also be sure to ask about how it was dealt with regarding transparency, warnings, chances given, democratic forums, etc.

Shitposting will get you a warning. I got one. (It's a long embarassing tedious story: /s/quotes/comments/8kd/einstein_quote_if_its_smaller_than_my_fist_or_an/ ) I thought it was obviously silly. I didn't get the big deal until they patiently explained it to me. I didn't even know what shitposting was. I've also never been a Redditor. I came here to be a truther free to seek and speak truth.

IMHO, SaidIt needs to state this more: SaidIt is a classy place.

That's how we can avoid being censored and remain civil and provide quality over quantity. Sure we all may slip into the gutter on occasion, but none of us dwell there.

[–]Greedeater 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well said.

[–]FormosaOolong 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

if you like saidit use it. If you don't, don't use it.

I think this should be on the main page banner!

[–]Bompf 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That looks like an excuse to justify removing peoples whose ideologies don't align with yours to me.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's not ideological in a left/right sense, it's just low on the pyramid of debate.

[–]Bompf 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Any one who starts censoring people will use it to censor those who disagree with them.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A complete lack of any content removal will end up in this site looking like voat, which is against our stated goal

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I joined Voat years ago when it didn't have many more users than place and it was great. Then Reddit started banning certain subs and all of those people flooded to Voat. If Voat was bigger, it would've survived it but the number of Reddit refugees on Voat quickly dwarfed the original great userbase.

This place looks cool so far but I worry that it's just another Reddit banning or two away from quickly becoming a shithole as well. Although thankfully these days they'll probably go to Voat by default. Personally I don't have a problem with people of all opinions being allowed to exist but it needs to have a balance or it all turns to shit.

[–]Bompf 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Hi. I'm new from voat. Most of those aren't shills. Let's be honest; defending our homeland is something a man should be proud of.

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I agree, defending your homeland is something to be proud of. But it depends who you consider an invader. If you're calling existing americans invaders, then we're not going to agree anymore

[–]Bompf 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Partisan combatant... Collateral damage happens all the time. If Muslims would stop bombing people then maybe they'd get bombed less?

[–]magnora7[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's like saying the Christchurch NZ shooting shows all Christians are violent shooters, and we should be afraid of Christians