The “Gold Star” Problem

submitted by WordsHaveMeanings from self.Lesbians

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[–]Hydiee 22 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

I think you're confused. I'm not trying to silence gold stars from telling their story. Why would I want to do that? Telling lesbians that they don't need to fuck men just to be sure is great. Telling lesbians that not being "gold star" makes them permanently tainted by men and less of a lesbian is the shit I don't like. And don't kid yourself by saying that doesn't happen.

The way I see it all lesbians, gold star or not, can help young lesbians avoid traumatic experiences by telling their stories. The gold stars say "I never slept with a man before and I've got zero regrets or FOMO. There's nothing wrong with never being with a man" and the non gold stars say "I did sleep with a man before and you know what? I still don't want them. It was an empty, traumatic experience for me. So if you're not attracted to men, having sex with them definitely won't "fix" that"

I personally think we should do away with the "gold star" stuff altogether. Like I said, all lesbians stories are valuable in helping younger lesbians understand that it's okay to set sexual boundaries and be themselves in this heterosexual world. No need to create some stupid division. We're all just lesbians.

[–]Wot 11 insightful - 7 fun11 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 7 fun -  (8 children)

Telling lesbians that not being "gold star" makes them permanently tainted by men and less of a lesbian is the shit I don't like. And don't kid yourself by saying that doesn't happen.

Ok, and that can be addressed without acting like the existence of gold stars is some burdensome, illogical division. It's not a zero sum game. Don't kid yourself by acting like that's the only discourse here and discourse put out by only some gold stars when that's very clearly easy rethoric co-opted by trans and bisexuals.

If you truly see all experiences as valuable than there's no reason for you to feel like gold stars should go away. What you're essentially doing is making people's lives comparable with ideology or politicizing it by saying gold stars create division. The division is inherent and fine because there will be women with this experience, period. You wanting them gone demonizes and silences them.

[–]Hydiee 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I'm shocked. Did you even read what I typed? Seriously??

Where did I say "the existence of gold stars is some burdensome, illogical division"?

Where did I say that I want gold stars "gone"?

First of all, you read and replied to my first comment which happens to begin with "As a gold star..." so you know already that it's dumb of you to say that I want gold stars gone. I said I want the gold star STUFF to be gone. I think it's a stupid concept that creates unnecessary division. Nobody -not a single person- is against you telling your story. You need to quit acting like some ostracized victim.

[–]Wot 9 insightful - 8 fun9 insightful - 7 fun10 insightful - 8 fun -  (6 children)

Where did I say "the existence of gold stars is some burdensome, illogical division" Where did I say that I want gold stars "gone"?

Did you forget you agreed with the woman who said:

It just seems to be a divisive label and I’m not sure why we wilfully perpetuate it. It plays zero role in who I want to date or what I think of a person. Why constantly bring a magnifying glass to who did and didn’t fuck men?

Basically reducing the gold star experience to a harmful concept we perpetuate and wanting the labeling of this experience gone because it's not significant to her? Are you going to act like wanting this gone is not wanting gold stars gone?

What does it even mean to not want gold stars gone but want their stuff gone? It's like saying, I don't want gays gone but I want gay stuff gone and then reducing gay "stuff" to homophobia lol. I was under the impression lesbians didn't want lesbianism politicized because it's an orientation but here yall are politicizing lesbianism lol Like, you literally agreed with a woman who basically said that the gold star concept is misogynistic, is bad because it makes those non-gold stars feel bad, is divisive (thus should go away like being a lesbian isn't divisive in and of itself and that's why we've been banished here), convinced that being gold star is not just an experience in and of itself but a broadcasting of unrealistic expectation but wants women to exist in a world where they don't feel pressure to be with men tho the very subject of gold stars is exhausting and over-talked about. That's not consistent. That's lesbophobic.

As a gold star, I agree that this subject is exhausting and over-talked about (and pointless) I'm glad I haven't met any lesbians in real life who want to sit around and chat about being gold star.

But ok, you aren't against people telling their story and think it's valuable lol

Yall: I want lesbians to be free of the pressure and experience of fucking men but I want those who didn't to essentially stfu about it even tho I acknowledge their voices would be valuable.

[–]Hydiee 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. Why are you bringing up political lesbians? All I said is that I wish we could be like gay men and stop giving a shit about whether other lesbians were with the opposite sex in their past or not. And somehow it turned into this...

But ok, you aren't against people telling their story and think it's valuable lol

When I agreed that the gold star subject is exhausting and over-talked about and said that I'm glad I don't know lesbians who want to sit and chat about that stuff in real life, I was not talking about gold stars telling their stories and experiences. I was referring to that disgusting holier than thou attitude that we've all seen before. What I should have said to be more clear is, "I'm glad I haven't met any lesbians in real life who want to sit around and pat each other's asses for being gold star."

We are on the same side, we both don't want lesbians to feel like they have to have sex with men. I really don't know what your problem is anymore.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Alternatively, another way we could discourage young lesbians from sleeping with men is by chilling the fuck out so it doesn't appear like being a lesbian means being in a constant state of war with the world, including with one another.

Because I can tell you, the angry, combative lesbian stereotype did young me absolutely no favors.

[–]Wot 8 insightful - 7 fun8 insightful - 6 fun9 insightful - 7 fun -  (2 children)

I hope older you realizes these stereotypes come from living in a misogynistic and homophobic world and not because lesbians are just shitty people. We didn't light our own houses on fire and if we don't hollar no one will know we're burning. Because what would also discourage lesbians from fucking men is speaking up when you see lesbophobia which is what I feel I see here. I'm not under the impression a lack of anger has overall done women in general many favors nor am I going to let stereotypes rob my voice to make the lesbian experience more palpable. I'm a black woman, it's a trap.

Your argument describes the experience of many women who transitioned too. I'm not these stereotypes women seem to be thus I must not be a woman.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Truly. The angry, combative lesbian stereotype was created by men to control women. As was the angry, combative suffragette stereotype from a century ago. As was the angry, combative feminist stereotype of the 60s/70s. As is the angry, combative "TERF" stereotype that we're seeing now. Notice a pattern. Men encourage these false depictions of women because they know women are conditioned to be "nice" so none of us wants to be this angry, combative woman everyone hates for no real reason and they know we'll try to be the opposite if just to be seen as "the right kind of woman." These stereotypes are essentially a campaign of "bitches be crazy" and they only serve to benefit men by creating the social pressure for women to be nicer, overlook our own needs, desires, and sexualities so that we continue to be the "weaker" sex to (for) men. Women in this thread talking about not wanting to define ourselves by men.

Letting men influence your opinions of women who are more like you than any man is the ultimate in defining yourself by men. If women think being a lesbian is bad, less will realize they're lesbians and straight men have "more options." If women don't vote or fight against misogynistic laws that control our bodies and lives, men control our bodies and lives. If radfems weren't currently fighting back against this absolute insanity of trans and kweer nonsense... could you imagine?

[–]Wot 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Women in this thread talking about not wanting to define ourselves by men.

Letting men influence your opinions of women who are more like you than any man is the ultimate in defining yourself by men.

Spot on. Ultimately, women in general, even lesbians, are okay with defining ourselves by men and it comes from agreeing to function within this male bullshit world, to the way we dress and even the language we use to define ourselves and other women. We define ourselves by men so much I'd say we really don't even know what woman are because exist in a androcentric, male supremacist world. So, yeah finding that sentiment here is truly funny. They just wanted to hate on gold stars in a thread about how gold stars are being persecuted.

If radfems weren't currently fighting back against this absolute insanity of trans and kweer nonsense... could you imagine?

Absolutely. It's as you said after all, it's only or primarily radfems because one thing women are scared of is not fitting within male made stereotypes of what a good woman is regardless of sexuality.

[–]reluctant_commenter 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

THANK you!!! Yes to all of this. Especially this:

Telling lesbians that they don't need to fuck men just to be sure is great. Telling lesbians that not being "gold star" makes them permanently tainted by men and less of a lesbian is the shit I don't like. And don't kid yourself by saying that doesn't happen.