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[–]MyLongestJourney 41 insightful - 4 fun41 insightful - 3 fun42 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Have other people noticed any of this? How can we address these issues?

Keep living your life and ignore the constant coercion to fuck men. Because what the hate against "gold stars", is really all about. Shaming lesbians for not being sexually available to men.Same old story.

[–]TalerTest 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. It's not worth caring about. These people never change. Just save your energy for yourself and your life.

[–][deleted] 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

I just think we shouldn't be defining ourselves in relation to men at all.

[–]funk_transcender 27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 0 fun28 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

This, in one sentence, pretty much sums up my feelings about the whole topic. I just find this subject exhausting and over-talked about honestly. It just seems to be a divisive label and I’m not sure why we wilfully perpetuate it. It plays zero role in who I want to date or what I think of a person. I don’t even know why you’d even be asking a potential partner if they’ve been with a man before... either they have and, they regret it, and probably find it quite traumatic to think about; if they haven’t, it appears they have their own issues about it too. Why constantly bring a magnifying glass to who did and didn’t fuck men? It’s bizarre. One thing I will say is I have zero tolerance for that BS in any relationship I find my self in. I’ve dealt with enough shame in my life, thanks.

[–][deleted] 20 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I used to think this and I still mostly agree, but the more I see woke homophobia in lgbt circles today, I really think young lesbians especially need to hear it's OK and even admirable to have sexual boundaries.

[–]funk_transcender 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Honestly, there are so few of us, the last thing we need or want is breakaway groups and more division. I think I'm just a bit frustrated with the last couple of days of r/BiologicalLesbians where there seemed to be a new gold star-related post every other day.

It'd be great to live in a utopian world where homophobia didn't exist, lesbians were represented in the media in a healthy/classy/non-toxic way, where you didn't feel it necessary to deeply suppress being attracted to woman as a GNC woman who feels very 'different' to the woman around you, where 'lesbian' wasn't thrown at your face as an insult through your teen years, where woman not enjoying sex with men is normalised, where the nuclear family with a mother and father and 2.1 kids isn't glorified by society, etc.

It's not the world we live in though and frankly never will be, lesbians are always going to be a sexual minority and this species tends to have a lot of psychological complexes about sex. I'm truly happy for those who could come to terms with everything and I do admire them, but this implicit expectation that eventually every lesbian will be a goldstar is just not realistic and non-goldstar lesbians will always be a sizeable proportion of lesbians. Lesbians are still people and they have wide ranging personalities, some are introverted and neurotic, some are extroverted and extremely comfortable with themselves, some intensely care what those around them think, etc.

I know I can just avoid all those posts, and generally I do, but I think people who constantly bring up this gold star topic don't realise how uncomfortable it is to be thinking back to moments you deeply regret and that again are often mildly (or fully) traumatic to think about. It's not fun to have sex with someone you have zero capacity to be attracted too. It's awful. It comes from a place of deep denial and self-hatred. I would probably be more open to these conversations if the whole subject wasn't treated so casually honestly.

[–]funk_transcender 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, in relation to OP, that trans person seems to just use the term 'goldstar lesbian' as a proxy to 'all lesbians', but that would just make their lesbophobia too transparent. I agree it's gross, and it's wrong that the term is used like this to basically project every negative lesbian stereotype in a way that is for whatever fucked up reason in certain social settings seen as 'more acceptable' or 'more nuanced'. My initial takeaway from the post is this is a mentally unhinged person in an environment full of mentally unhinged people who will enable whatever questionable lectures they come up with. Lesbians being pushed out of LGBT groups is unfortunately the norm now and this instance was just that.

Maybe I'm out of the loop on how the term is being used in mainstream LGBT circles, that would certainly contextualise more the sudden focus in this term. But I still think the best thing to do here is ditch the label entirely. It has misogynistic undertones to me, gay men to my knowledge do not have an equivalent term - and if they do, it holds no where near as much relevance. The existence and proliferation of this concept sincerely seems to be a lose-lose situation for lesbians.

[–]reluctant_commenter 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think people who constantly bring up this gold star topic don't realise how uncomfortable it is to be thinking back to moments you deeply regret and that again are often mildly (or fully) traumatic to think about. It's not fun to have sex with someone you have zero capacity to be attracted too. It's awful. It comes from a place of deep denial and self-hatred. I would probably be more open to these conversations if the whole subject wasn't treated so casually honestly.

I relate a lot to this. Thanks for saying this.

[–]funk_transcender 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you for the reply. I actually had to go off this site for a couple of months after this whole conversation and have a breather, since it was feeling too toxic. It means a lot my emotional vent at least offered some solace to at least one person feeling the same. I'm pretty happy to come back and see the fixation on this topic seems to have settled down a bit, thank god.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hey! Yes, it did make me feel better; at the time I saw this conversation, I felt too hesitant to say it, myself, and I'm really glad you did. You hit the nail on the head.

I actually stopped hanging out on s/lesbians almost completely, but I think some of the older regulars who would talk about "goldstar" and bash bisexuals) are gone, I've noticed more thoughtfulness in recent posts. But I still mostly hang out on s/lgbdropthet. I've been meaning to get a more positive LGBmemes sub started for a while. You're one of many people I've talked to who got disheartened and left this sub temporarily or permanently, or who just needed a break because the topics were too negative.

Also, re-reading your comment I completely agree with this as well:

but this implicit expectation that eventually every lesbian will be a goldstar is just not realistic and non-goldstar lesbians will always be a sizeable proportion of lesbians. Lesbians are still people and they have wide ranging personalities, some are introverted and neurotic, some are extroverted and extremely comfortable with themselves, some intensely care what those around them think, etc.

Hope you're doing well. :)

[–]strictly 13 insightful - 7 fun13 insightful - 6 fun14 insightful - 7 fun -  (16 children)

I just find this subject exhausting and over-talked about honestly

It can be nice to talk to other lesbians with the same background who can relate to that as lesbians with sexual history with men often (not always) assume those who lack sexual history with men must be more privileged and dealt with less homophobia which isn't always the case. If it's considered a triggering topic in lesbian sub I actually think we need more division, a space where lesbians with this background can talk about it without anyone feeling sad about it.

[–]Hydiee 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

As a gold star, I agree that this subject is exhausting and over-talked about (and pointless). Honestly, there are some things I envy about the gay male community and this is one of them. They don't give a damn about this stupid gold star shit. Fortunately, this is almost entirely just an online thing. I'm glad I haven't met any lesbians in real life who want to sit around and chat about being gold star.

[–]strictly 11 insightful - 6 fun11 insightful - 5 fun12 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

As a gold star, I agree that this subject is exhausting and over-talked about (and pointless)

Yeah but you are not all women with this background, like women who don't care if men are in the female locker rooms, they are not all women. Shouldn't we be able to decide for ourselves as individuals if we find that as something we would want to talk about? It shouldn't be forced of course so if you don't want to talk about it, then don't, but I still think others should be able to talk about having that background if they want to.

I'm glad I haven't met any lesbians in real life who want to sit around and chat about being gold star.

I personally would find it interesting to talk with others who can relate to not being able to relate when people talk about their history with men so we are not the same in that regard. It seems you see it as disrespectful in some way to talk about it when it's a neutral topic.

[–]Hydiee 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't see it as disrespectful. I agree that others can talk about it if they want, it's not like I could stop them anyway. I know I'm not "all women", I was simply giving my opinion. Hopefully that clears up all your false assumptions.

[–]strictly 10 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I don't see it as disrespectful.

Hopefully that clears up all your false assumptions.

If I hear two people talk about knitting and I tell them the subject is exhausting, over-talked about and pointless then I wouldn't act surpised if it seemed like they thought I judged them. But I will take your word for it.

[–]Wot 6 insightful - 8 fun6 insightful - 7 fun7 insightful - 8 fun -  (11 children)

I find this sentiment stupid because if we want more lesbians to avoid traumatic experiences of fucking men and counter all the influence and ubiquitous pressure there is to fuck men then gold star rethoric needs more exposure not less. Not fucking men isn't normal, gold star rethoric normalizes it and trying to silence it and call it pointless and over talked is literally counter to protecting lesbians.

[–]Hydiee 22 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

I think you're confused. I'm not trying to silence gold stars from telling their story. Why would I want to do that? Telling lesbians that they don't need to fuck men just to be sure is great. Telling lesbians that not being "gold star" makes them permanently tainted by men and less of a lesbian is the shit I don't like. And don't kid yourself by saying that doesn't happen.

The way I see it all lesbians, gold star or not, can help young lesbians avoid traumatic experiences by telling their stories. The gold stars say "I never slept with a man before and I've got zero regrets or FOMO. There's nothing wrong with never being with a man" and the non gold stars say "I did sleep with a man before and you know what? I still don't want them. It was an empty, traumatic experience for me. So if you're not attracted to men, having sex with them definitely won't "fix" that"

I personally think we should do away with the "gold star" stuff altogether. Like I said, all lesbians stories are valuable in helping younger lesbians understand that it's okay to set sexual boundaries and be themselves in this heterosexual world. No need to create some stupid division. We're all just lesbians.

[–]Wot 11 insightful - 7 fun11 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 7 fun -  (8 children)

Telling lesbians that not being "gold star" makes them permanently tainted by men and less of a lesbian is the shit I don't like. And don't kid yourself by saying that doesn't happen.

Ok, and that can be addressed without acting like the existence of gold stars is some burdensome, illogical division. It's not a zero sum game. Don't kid yourself by acting like that's the only discourse here and discourse put out by only some gold stars when that's very clearly easy rethoric co-opted by trans and bisexuals.

If you truly see all experiences as valuable than there's no reason for you to feel like gold stars should go away. What you're essentially doing is making people's lives comparable with ideology or politicizing it by saying gold stars create division. The division is inherent and fine because there will be women with this experience, period. You wanting them gone demonizes and silences them.

[–]Hydiee 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I'm shocked. Did you even read what I typed? Seriously??

Where did I say "the existence of gold stars is some burdensome, illogical division"?

Where did I say that I want gold stars "gone"?

First of all, you read and replied to my first comment which happens to begin with "As a gold star..." so you know already that it's dumb of you to say that I want gold stars gone. I said I want the gold star STUFF to be gone. I think it's a stupid concept that creates unnecessary division. Nobody -not a single person- is against you telling your story. You need to quit acting like some ostracized victim.

[–]Wot 9 insightful - 8 fun9 insightful - 7 fun10 insightful - 8 fun -  (6 children)

Where did I say "the existence of gold stars is some burdensome, illogical division" Where did I say that I want gold stars "gone"?

Did you forget you agreed with the woman who said:

It just seems to be a divisive label and I’m not sure why we wilfully perpetuate it. It plays zero role in who I want to date or what I think of a person. Why constantly bring a magnifying glass to who did and didn’t fuck men?

Basically reducing the gold star experience to a harmful concept we perpetuate and wanting the labeling of this experience gone because it's not significant to her? Are you going to act like wanting this gone is not wanting gold stars gone?

What does it even mean to not want gold stars gone but want their stuff gone? It's like saying, I don't want gays gone but I want gay stuff gone and then reducing gay "stuff" to homophobia lol. I was under the impression lesbians didn't want lesbianism politicized because it's an orientation but here yall are politicizing lesbianism lol Like, you literally agreed with a woman who basically said that the gold star concept is misogynistic, is bad because it makes those non-gold stars feel bad, is divisive (thus should go away like being a lesbian isn't divisive in and of itself and that's why we've been banished here), convinced that being gold star is not just an experience in and of itself but a broadcasting of unrealistic expectation but wants women to exist in a world where they don't feel pressure to be with men tho the very subject of gold stars is exhausting and over-talked about. That's not consistent. That's lesbophobic.

As a gold star, I agree that this subject is exhausting and over-talked about (and pointless) I'm glad I haven't met any lesbians in real life who want to sit around and chat about being gold star.

But ok, you aren't against people telling their story and think it's valuable lol

Yall: I want lesbians to be free of the pressure and experience of fucking men but I want those who didn't to essentially stfu about it even tho I acknowledge their voices would be valuable.

[–]Hydiee 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. Why are you bringing up political lesbians? All I said is that I wish we could be like gay men and stop giving a shit about whether other lesbians were with the opposite sex in their past or not. And somehow it turned into this...

But ok, you aren't against people telling their story and think it's valuable lol

When I agreed that the gold star subject is exhausting and over-talked about and said that I'm glad I don't know lesbians who want to sit and chat about that stuff in real life, I was not talking about gold stars telling their stories and experiences. I was referring to that disgusting holier than thou attitude that we've all seen before. What I should have said to be more clear is, "I'm glad I haven't met any lesbians in real life who want to sit around and pat each other's asses for being gold star."

We are on the same side, we both don't want lesbians to feel like they have to have sex with men. I really don't know what your problem is anymore.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Alternatively, another way we could discourage young lesbians from sleeping with men is by chilling the fuck out so it doesn't appear like being a lesbian means being in a constant state of war with the world, including with one another.

Because I can tell you, the angry, combative lesbian stereotype did young me absolutely no favors.

[–]reluctant_commenter 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

THANK you!!! Yes to all of this. Especially this:

Telling lesbians that they don't need to fuck men just to be sure is great. Telling lesbians that not being "gold star" makes them permanently tainted by men and less of a lesbian is the shit I don't like. And don't kid yourself by saying that doesn't happen.

[–]strictly 16 insightful - 7 fun16 insightful - 6 fun17 insightful - 7 fun -  (12 children)

I just think we shouldn't be defining ourselves in relation to men at all.

Some bisexual women use the same reasoning regarding the use of the word lesbian, they think labeling female-attracted women differently based on their attraction/lack of attraction to men is defining ourselves in relation to men and therefore we should just have one big umbrella term for women attracted to women and not further division. I disagree with that reasoning because even if both bisexual women and lesbians are attracted to women we still have different experiences exactly because one is group is attracted to men and the other group isn't. Lesbians who have sexual history with men and lesbians who don't also have different experiences.

[–][deleted] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thats just stupid.

[–]strictly 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

What is stupid?

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

that bisexual girls think that

[–]Anniesworld 8 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

You made a valid point in a discussion, don't let other people make you feel bad about saying your thoughts. It's a pretty good point that gay men and women define ourselves on our non attraction to the opposite sex and attraction to our same sex.

So why does it matter so much to other lesbians, when lesbians choose to discuss that they had no sexual experiences with men. I mean sometimes I myself wish I had dated them to be more experienced with dating.

I think this whole gold star thing ruffles feathers on certain birds. Which I don't think anyone who uses the term as a description even means to do. It's not a malicious judgement on other lesbians, it's just a word.

We are all lesbians.

[–]Hydiee 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I define myself by my exclusive attraction to women. Men are not part of the picture.

And she didn't make a valid point because bringing up bisexual women calling themselves lesbians is a false equivalence.

[–]strictly 13 insightful - 6 fun13 insightful - 5 fun14 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

I define myself by my exclusive attraction to women.

And some see their exclusive sexual history with women as part of their background too. Recognizing that we have only had sexual experience with women, and the impact that might have had on our lives, doesn't mean we automatically define ourselves in relation to men either.

[–]Hydiee 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Recognizing that we have only had sexual experience with women, and the impact that might have had on our lives, doesn't mean we automatically define ourselves in relation to men either.

I agree. But you do realize that if men didn't exist then the gold star concept wouldn't exist? You can care and talk about this stuff if you want, but when other lesbians don't share your passion, don't assume that it's because they are offended, jealous, bitter or whatever. Most of the time it's because they simply don't care that much about men and don't feel the need to give them significance within our sexuality.

[–]strictly 9 insightful - 6 fun9 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

don't assume that it's because they are offended, jealous, bitter or whatever

And I don't. I only assume someone is offended by it when they say the subject is exhausting/over-talked/pointless (or something to that effect) as someone who simply doesn't care about the topic wouldn't say anything (if a topic simply disinterests me I just don't engage in it).

[–]Wot 6 insightful - 8 fun6 insightful - 7 fun7 insightful - 8 fun -  (2 children)

But you do realize that if men didn't exist then the gold star concept wouldn't exist?

Neither would the lesbian concept lol

[–]Hydiee 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's true actually.

[–]VioletRemi 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not really, even if there only one sex, or ten sexes, homosexuality is still staying homosexuality.

[–]Jillyjanejan 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I never thought of it like this, but now that you bring it up, I agree. Great point

[–]WildwoodFlower 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed.

[–]bbbarbican 8 insightful - 8 fun8 insightful - 7 fun9 insightful - 8 fun -  (9 children)

telling young lesbians that no, they shouldn't feel compelled to sleep with men to "be sure" is crucial. that it's ok to never sleep with men and to have boundaries. It's ok to feel zero attraction to men. Women are constantly told they should be available for sex with men. If you can't see that and want to frame the issue as some sort of irrational hatred for men, that's on you.

We live in a patriarchy, ALL women are defined by whether they sleep with men or not. like hello. Where is that place you live in where women get to be themselves with no relation to men at all? I would love to live there.

Also, the refusal of the term goldstar is a way for het or bi women to then claim to be lesbians, even though they have been fucking men for years with no gun to their head.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Lmfao not wanting to frame my identity in relation to men doesn't have anything to do with hating men. I am a lesbian who was forced to marry a man and therefore was with a man for 3 years before coming out. Does that make me less of a lesbian? NO.

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            [–]TalerTest 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            no one said anything about hatred of men. I don't think you even understood the comment.

            Also, EVERYONE here is all for telling lesbians that they don't have to sleep with men just to be sure that they are lesbians.

            [–][deleted] 28 insightful - 1 fun28 insightful - 0 fun29 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

            I’m in my 30s and dated women since high school.

            I honestly never heard of the word until I came to lesbian groups on the internet and while I’ve seen some who are just celebrating their path, the most I see is kind of misogynistic or unsympathetic to different paths of life.

            For example, my only sexual encounter with a man was a sexual assault. All I am told is not to worry, I still get my sticker. Um, my sexual assault was extremely graphic and traumatic. I am not fishing for an internet cookie nor does it make me feel better that I “still get one.” Like, thanks it was never a worry nor an issue in me getting women.

            Secondly, some online lesbian communities can come to sound very shameful or unsympathetic to lesbians that did not have the perfect path. It’s almost like men who want to find virgins and value women based on how less touched they were before them.

            I have seen lesbians that just celebrate it and awesome. It should be celebrated that you knew yourself and were unaffected, however some corners of this can be toxic and ugly.

            [–]Anniesworld 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

            I think people should respect each other and their life stories.

            I was also assaulted a few years ago and I think for anyone to consider that part of your orientation/ identity is kinda fu**ed in the head. You define who you are.

            I've only ever used gold star as a descriptor in conversation or as a light hearted joke with other lesbians and gay men. I agree with you, that it's mostly a internet conversation topic which tends to morph it's self into a measurement contest of how much more of a lesbian they are(which I think is pretty juvenile).

            Even though that is the case, I think positivity about it is a good thing. If the gold star experience becomes more common place that would mean more women feel safe and empowered enough to fully express their sexual identity. I think that is a great goal to strive for, but even so there will still be women who will have experiences with men. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, people sometimes need to explore things to understand what they want in life.

            [–]StoneyTangawizi1 15 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

            I am a goldstar and I also think goldstar positivity is a good thing if I can help much more young girls and women avoided being sexually intimated with someone who they don't feel attraction to, and ended up feeling disgusted "dirty" or "devastated" and even traumatic to themselves thanks to fucked up dickcentric male-worshipping societal standards. To me, goldstar should become the norm among lesbians in the West (believe it or not, but in some Muslim countries like in North Africa, goldstars seem to be the norm there from what I learnt from my conversations with other lesbians from those places).

            The following story is an example of positivity which should be heard much more. Its from another lesbian forum.

            While I understand and respect that women and lesbians's journey can be different, as someone who grew up with a lesbian aunt and her group of lesbian friends (nine of them women from two different continents, and five different countries. My aunt and I are Irish/North Indians. Four are surgeons like my aunt, two lawyers, one architect, one accountant and one forensic research scientist), I feel like the notion and careless mention that "non gold stars" are many is an utter disrespect for many, many, many, many "gold stars/platinum stars".

            Back in the days of my aunt and her friends' youthful days(early 70s to early 90s, where they were between their teenage years and twenties, they don't go by the star thing. In fact, they are beautiful and intelligent young women who chose to concentrate on furthering their education and establishing their career, along where they met their girlfriends and future wives)

            These women come from various backgrounds and race, most of them are Europeans and Americans who didn't blindly follow any silly "peer pressure" and such. Some of their other lesbian friends who were from more conservative, religious background who initially thought that there was something wrong with them actually didn't resort to "following their peers or trying to date men", instead they isolated themselves from doing something that is extremely revolting to them. Eventually, they understood that being a lesbian is absolutely normal, and the hetero-patriarchal society they live in will never get to dictate their lives.

            Growing up amidst these wonderful, brave women and learning more from their friends and acquaintances made me realise that stories and journies like this are often silenced and not spoken or told widely enough because these women treat being a lesbian as normal and as natural as the sun and moon, and defying the misogynistic, hetero-patriarchal society.

            My sympathies and understanding for those who weren't brave or fortunate enough to have such courage and clearer mind and convictions but in all honesty, these are not the stories that should be told often because these are NOT the norm. These so called "non goldstars" are NOT the norm anywhere in the world, not even in countries like America where high schoolers are pressured to loose their "virginity" like it's some damn plague. It's just that they're stories and experience are repeated often, so very unfortunately. It almost seems like it's done on purpose by some other groups of people that try to tell other girls and women "hey, you can't decide you're gay/lesbian unless you've tried having sex or having sexual relations with men", which is extremely, disgustingly revolting. It's nothing but male entitlement demanding that any woman or girl must be available to men. This has to be eradicated, like twenty centuries ago.

            My wish and advice to young lesbians is that they understand that in no terms do they ever have to do something that they're uncomfortable with, in no terms do they have to try something that they find utterly revolting just because their other friends are doing it, in no terms do they have to feel pressured to let their body be a merely available sexual object for some entitled piece of shit.

            My wish for especially the young lesbians is that they understand that yes, it's absolutely normal to wait; Yes, it's absolutely normal to simply wait even for your very first kiss, your very first sexual relation with a girl/woman whom YOU are sexually (and even romantically) attracted to and who SHE is mutually attracted to and respects and cherish you as a person. Yes, it's absolutely alright to want your "firsts" to be special, with that special girl/woman.

            [–]ShotsFired 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

            It almost seems like it's done on purpose by some other groups of people that try to tell other girls and women "hey, you can't decide you're gay/lesbian unless you've tried having sex or having sexual relations with men", which is extremely, disgustingly revolting.

            People who think that way are going to think that way regardless. They're just homophobes. It's nothing new, like MyLongestJourney said. And when it comes to the coercion and pressure that young lesbians face, that's also going to exist regardless of them hearing gold star stories or not. We live in a heterosexual world. I know you mean well, but I'm with Lavalanche17 on the not defining ourselves in relation to men at all thing.

            [–]StoneyTangawizi1 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

            Well if these gold star stories and experiences can help massively increase the number of goldstars and greatly minimize/decrease the number of young future lesbians who will end up dating and fucking males due to hetero-misogynistic and dick-worshipping social pressures and standards, then I think it should be heavily promoted and heard in the lesbian community and also to the internet and media, so that young girls who are trying to figure their sexuality or struggling to accept them can find out and heard about these gold star stories/experiences.

            I don't really understand what Lavalanche17's point is? If we can help much more young lesbians becoming goldstars then we definitely should promote goldstar positivity.

            [–]TalerTest 29 insightful - 2 fun29 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

            Lavalanche17 did make a pretty good point. If you think about it, the goldstar stuff is all about men. Categorizing lesbians by past relations to men. I've always found it off-putting to give men that kind of significance in our sexuality. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely all for showing young lesbians that there's nothing wrong with having sexual boundaries, but I'm not sure that this is the way to go about it. It would be simultaneously teaching those young lesbians that men have the power/authority to take something (their "goldstar") away from them and their identity and I hate the idea of giving that kind of importance to men at all, personally. I think we are on different sides of the coin. I don't care at all if a lesbian has been with a man in the past or not. My only hope is that the ones in heterosexual situations can come out and live their truth.

            [–]Wot 8 insightful - 8 fun8 insightful - 7 fun9 insightful - 8 fun -  (2 children)

            I really don't get this sentiment at all. It's like taking issue with the fact that if you have sex then how you're identified changes. We literally live in a world where women and girls are seen as existing for men and babies and if you haven't been with a man then you're strange and even hated. Why would we ever want to silence gold star rethoric when it would be the only thing protecting lesbians from all the ubiquitous and quotidian coercion to be with men? To be normal? If you really think about it, the term lesbian also categorizes ourselves in relation to men because it's about male exclusion. Men exist and in that effect, they always have significance to our sexuality because it's not the norm to exclude them. Good for your if you don't care if a lesbian has been with a man or not. That's not the point. Gold star being amplified could have protected those lesbians in het situations you claim to care about to have never gotten in them if that was a genuine choice for them.

            [–]TalerTest 16 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

            I was going to respond, but someone else who you also accused of "trying to silence gold stars" already left a perfect response right here.

            And what is gold star rhetoric? Isn't that just lesbian rhetoric? "You don't need to have sex with men to know that you're a lesbian" Every lesbian says that.

            [–]Wot 9 insightful - 8 fun9 insightful - 7 fun10 insightful - 8 fun -  (0 children)

            Gold star rhetoric is literally just their experience which differs from those whose been with men. Its, "I know it's not normal to not have fucked men but I didn't. Here's exactly what that looks like, here's how misconceptions didn't fit as another user here has mentioned, here's how you'll get hate from every direction even your own community as you can see here, etc." Why can't yall just own up to the fact that all yall care about is that it makes some lesbians uncomfortable and that's worth trying to silence other lesbians about? Because, if the idea being perpetuate by all lesbians is that you don't need to sleep with men for any reason then you're literally trying to build the gold star community and simultaneously telling them to go away.

            [–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Just wanted to say that's a really good point and one that I haven't heard brought about this topic before.

            [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Thank you, this is exactly what I was trying to say. "Gold star" gives men way too much power.

            [–]Sarahh 20 insightful - 5 fun20 insightful - 4 fun21 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

            I have noticed that bisexual women seem to have a real problem with goldstar lesbians but why I couldn't tell you

            [–]MyLongestJourney 19 insightful - 6 fun19 insightful - 5 fun20 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

            There are two categories of bisexual women :

            1.The ones who can not understand how lesbians do not like dick,because dick is delicious to them.Some of them are cool and do not harass lesbians anyway,but some of them keep busting our ovaries over it.I hate the ones who do this in order to please their men (see threesomes) the most.

            2.The ones who do understand that lesbians do not like dick,but despise them for this reason anyway. Like every other homophobe.

            And this is why I unapologetically avoid bisexuals as sexual partners or close friends.

            [–][deleted] 20 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

            I feel like most of the women who rag on goldstars are either bisexuals LARPing as lesbians, or lesbians who are insecure because they're not goldstars. In my day to day experience most women don't care AT ALL whether you're a goldstar or not. I really only ever see these conversations online. I honestly just ignore it because so many people paint goldstar lesbians badly as an excuse to be homophobic.

            [–]bbbarbican 4 insightful - 9 fun4 insightful - 8 fun5 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

            well said

            [–]HelloMomo 16 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 4 fun -  (34 children)

            I saw something really interesting on r/BiologicalLesbians right before it went down. There was this woman from a south asian country talking about how in her country — and, from what she'd heard, and other conservatives countries as well — nearly all lesbians are gold stars, because premarital sex is discouraged. Teenagers aren't supposed to date, they're supposed to focus on their studies. And so most lesbians have the time to figure out they're lesbians first.

            Coming from a very sexualized western country, I have no personal experience of this, but I thought it was a super interesting topic, and would like to hear more about it.

            [–]StoneyTangawizi1 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

            Oh that's me. Yes where I am from, goldstars are pretty much the norm because premarital sex and dating is pretty much frowned upon here while virginity is taken very seriously. In fact, having sex before marriage, or being sexually active/promiscuous here is seen bringing shame and dishonor to the family and would be seen as being "loose" or "whore" (sorry don't really want to use that word). Even a lot of men here would be shamed by their families if they found although virginity is not expected here for men as much as it is for women.

            And yes because of this very conservative attitude towards sex and relationships, there was often enough time for many women and girls to discovered that they are lesbians. In fact, where I live, a lot of women's (even for those who are not lesbians) first sexual experience is often with another women (albeit discretely) due to the stigmatization of premarital sex and dating. Same thing with men. A lot of straight guys here actually lost virginity (also done in secret) with another boy or man.

            Furthermore, yep I heard from another lesbian who is from Morocco, that goldstars are the predominant majority of lesbians in her country due to the societal taboo towards premarital sex and dating. That even women and girls who are sexually attracted to males have a hard time getting laid. And that she only met non-golds in Western countries.

            I also heard indirectly from another lesbian who told me she know this girl who is also from North Africa (not sure the country), who told me that in her nation, there isn't an issue of goldstars vs non-goldstars in the lesbian community there, as goldstars are the norm among lesbians there due to conservative attitudes towards sex and relationships.

            Lastly, I also heard from another lesbian who is originally from China that all the lesbians she met there are all platinum stars by default. And it has to do with the fact that the Chinese approach towards sex and desire is very different from those of West; there is much much less pressure and obsession to lose virginity or to be sexually active. In fact, she literally told me that if a woman announced to people that she is promiscuous, she would be shamed and seen as "whore" or "loose" by the whole community where she lived. Furthermore, a lot of Chinese wanted to be virgins until marriage.

            [–]votkriscan 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

            Furthermore, a lot of Chinese wanted to be virgins until marriage.

            This is completely untrue for the heterosexual generation of people in the full 20's range and also 30's. Even lesbians are not virginal either. They just lose their V-card to a woman instead of a man.

            [–]StoneyTangawizi1 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            Thank you for correcting me regarding the virginity thing. I heard this from another lesbian who is originally from China (she growed up and live abroad) and who have a lot of friends there so please take my words as a grain of salt.

            But is it true that platinum stars are very much the norm among lesbians there?

            [–]votkriscan 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

            Haha, yeah. Scholastic focus is pretty important, so it's perfectly fine spending your teen years nerding out. It is not seen as awkward, but diligent, especially if you do well. Thus, around your late 20's you'd be asked to date and marry. However, by then, if you do well enough, you'd have your own career and life and can be a platinum star all you want throughout.

            [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

            Right and I commented on that saying it highly isn't true and growing up in asia all the lesbians I knew werent gold stars especially those who were pressured to marry men or date men due to the culture.

            [–][deleted]  (28 children)

            [removed]

              [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

              It's common but saying all the lesbians in asia are gold stars isnt true and excludes a lot of women who have been through trauma.

              [–][deleted]  (26 children)

              [removed]

                [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

                sexual assault, forced marriages, familial pressure etc.

                Seriously get off your high horse. Being a gold star doesn't make you a better lesbian than someone who isnt.

                [–]VioletRemi 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                That person looks like the one I was speaking about in my post. Who is saying that "if you was raped, you no longer lesbian, you are bisexual now" and similar elitism. If not people like her, there would not be any troubles with this term at all.

                [–]Dudukolo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                Where did she ever say that type of stuff? Can you please show me?

                I am here to defend my friend as she never mentioned such thing.

                [–]WildwoodFlower 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                I never heard of gold stars until maybe a year or so ago. I've only seen it discussed on lesbian forums, not on bi women's forums. (Keep in mind, though, that I don't spend a lot of time on bi forums.) In most cases, the women I've seen bringing it up are gold stars. Unfortunately, some of them (not all) tend to be rather smug or judgemental about it. I don't think being a gold star makes someone a better lesbian or a more authentic lesbian. Most of the lesbians I know personally were married to men at one time. Most grew up in a different era, where getting married was just something women did, whether they really wanted to or not. In other cases, it was like some kind of do-it-yourself conversion therapy. I also know gay men who married women for similar reasons. And no, these people are not bisexual. They are now all happily settled down with same-sex partners and they have no intention of going back to heterosexuality.

                [–][deleted] 14 insightful - 5 fun14 insightful - 4 fun15 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

                I came out late in life, and I think gold stars should get a megaphone and shout it from the rooftops and those of us who aren't gold stars should shut the fuck up and cheer them on.

                [–]Anniesworld 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

                As a gold star thanks for the support. I have never once used that as a way to make fun of other lesbians. Why would I? It makes literally no sense for anyone to do that, I'd effectively alienate most of the miniscule dating pool I'm in and also who is that big an a-hole to make fun of someone for that. I feel privileged to have been able to live in a time and place where I didn't feel pressure to sleep with a man or to marry a man to survive. I am lucky, not more worthy or deserving of the lable lesbian. In other ways I'm unlucky, I wouldn't consider dating men when I was younger so I never got useful dating experience before my mid twenties.

                I feel like that's definitely a negative thing most people don't think about. That you effectively don't date when you are a young gold star card holder. Unless you were hitting on every girl left and right in highschool you probably won't get much experience.

                [–]MyLongestJourney 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                I have never once used that as a way to make fun of other lesbians. Why would I? It makes literally no sense for anyone to do that, I'd effectively alienate most of the miniscule dating pool I'm in and also who is that big an a-hole to make fun of someone for that. I feel privileged to have been able to live in a time and place where I didn't feel pressure to sleep with a man or to marry a man to survive. I am lucky, not more worthy or deserving of the lable lesbian

                This is my attitude as well.I do not look down at other lesbians who slept with men under social pressure or for survival. But I will fight to the end all of the rapey coercers who insist that lesbians can feel sexual attraction to men.

                [–]bbbarbican 13 insightful - 8 fun13 insightful - 7 fun14 insightful - 8 fun -  (3 children)

                lesbians who never slept with men weren't "privileged" though. We just resisted. Straight privilege exists, lesbian privilege doesn't.

                [–]CuntWorshiper 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

                Yes. That’s something those bisexual types love to say about gold stars and it pisses me off to death. The fuckers go on and on about how lucky and privileged we are for me women and actual homosexuals.

                In what parallel universe women and homosexuals hold power and own wide society to be privileged for being woman and homosexual? Tell me, I’m moving there.

                [–]Rubyredpython 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                This! A thousand times this!

                [–]Sapphicatalyst 11 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

                In other ways I'm unlucky, I wouldn't consider dating men when I was younger so I never got useful dating experience before my mid twenties.

                In a way, I consider gay people who dated the opposite sex in high school to be the "lucky" ones because at least they got the social experience, practice, and stories to tell of dating in their youth. Not ideal obviously, but just wondering if not dating at all vs dating the wrong sex is truly the lesser of two evils. I'm a gold star that considered myself asexual until my mid-twenties. Mid thirties now.

                [–]piylot 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

                I don't think you learn anything useful about relationships by spending your younger years in one sided relationships /having sexual experiences you didn't want to be in.

                [–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                Agreed. Those relationships are also likely to involve elements of coercion, which can scare a person off from attempting to have healthy relationships in the future.

                [–]bbbarbican 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

                why would you regret not sleeping with men? Your comment is weird.

                [–]Sapphicatalyst 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                I don't regret not sleeping with men, it's just a thought experiment of wondering how would I be different today if I had. It's kinda like wondering what benefits I would have experienced if I was born male, at a different place, or at a different time. Would my parents and friends have treated me better? What sort of impact would that have had on me today?

                ETA: If anything, I "regret" not being born straight, but I can't change that.

                [–]VioletRemi 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

                In places where I live and lived, it is almost opposite - it is "gold stars" who are attacking the rest of lesbians, including raped lesbians by men (as corrective rape was practiced few decades ago), and calling them as "dirty lesbians" or "not lesbians anymore".

                This problem you are talking seems to be very western one, most likely USA-based. And it seems like it is very different in different cultures. In far east, seems that majority of lesbians are gold stars, so there no such problem, while on close and middle east other way around, but still no such problem, as gold stars there praised as being lucky ones who avoided forced marriages or other ways of society to force them to be with men. And I am living in the middle of west and east, so we are taking the worst of both worlds here (I wish we were taking the best, but oh well). When I was already alive - for being lesbian you could get in prison or mental asylum, as homosexuality was against the law, so yeah.

                In place where I live, there were no such phrasing or even idea until around 5-7 years ago. So we all were just lesbians. This phrase came from western forums, and as everything western, first to take western stuff were edgy teens and privileged rich people.

                Here whole idea of phrase "golden star" has very negative connotations. Most lesbians here do not want other lesbians to sleep with men and advicing to young lesbians to never sleep with men and never try "maybe you will like dick", even society in general is slowly accepting that lesbians exist and that it is fine to be a lesbian and be without a man. However, a bunch of elitists and bisexual women (some bisexual women calling them "gold stars", and then marrying men) ruined "gold star" phrase. So most lesbians, including me, are all about no social pressure on lesbians, so lesbians can live without dating or sleeping with men, we are here still against phrase "gold star" and division caused by it on "true" lesbians and "dirty" lesbians.

                Here "Gold star" is mostly used as a way to shame older lesbians or lesbians in general. Almost always it is used as a replacement to "virgin". It is used by bisexual women as well, who are basically saying "we are virgins and 'lesbians' until we meet correct man", I even know one such personally in real life. They think that only sex that matters is sex with man, and sex with women is not "real sex", so you are staying "virgin". And that lesbians who slept with man and not married on that man for life are just not lesbians anymore or whores. And some young lesbians are on same way of thinking (except the marriage part). They basically not believing sex with a woman is "real" sex. Which is annoying to hear from bisexual women, and is very harmful when young lesbians starting to believe it.

                So it is very elitist thing to say here, I know few young lesbians who are lied that they had slept with men - just to not be associated with "gold star" elitists. As elitists are saying that only gold stars are lesbians, and everyone else is bisexual, and even if lesbian was raped - she is stopping being lesbian to them and she is very shamed for it afterwards.

                Even worse thing is "platinum" lesbians. When they are basically saying "gold lesbian is better lesbian then raped lesbian, and I am even better than gold lesbian". Actually even on west it is something like that, why phrasing "platinum lesbian" even exist? Gold lesbian already enough, it is clrealy some sort of elitism. Next level will be "emerald lesbian", who never even saw a man? It sounds really stupid and divisive. At least here.

                So situation here is quite opposite. It is not "non-gold star" lesbians, who are shaming lesbians to sleep with men, it is "gold star" lesbians and bisexual women who are calling the rest as "not true lesbians" or "dirty lesbians". In latest years it becoming less and less of an issue, thought, and this "gold star" lesbian thing seems to be completely going away (as it sounds a bit stupid when translated on our language).

                And in general, I don't understand why we, lesbians, women who are loving exclusively women - are describing and dividing ourselves based on our "penis virginity" and based on our interraction with men.

                [–]Elvira95 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

                It's always so fascinating to read your thoughtful comments...

                [–]VioletRemi 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                If we haven't spent so much our time together, I'd thought you are stalkering me, honey ;)

                [–]Elvira95 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                Well, everyone would be stalkering you, babe. You're awesome

                [–]VioletRemi 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

                Stop flattering me on public! It makes me feel uncomfortable and blush a lot, lol.

                [–]Elvira95 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                Sorry. Hard not to brag about one of the hottest women in the world

                [–]Icebridge 11 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

                I'm a gold star lesbian (and even platinum star, as ive recently learned that term lol) I've never meant it to mean I'm better than non goldstar lesbians, but I'm definitely better than "lesbians" who arent homosexual 😂 Tbh though i feel its not as useful a term as people treat it and i dont think it really encapsulates my experience. I feel it sort of implies you had an easy life / were confident without internalized homophobia, but I struggled a lot, just the thought of being physically intimate in any way with a male person makes me feel disgusted so i couldnt do it.

                [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

                Seriously. Nongoldstars really think we're "elitist" and "privileged" just because we knew at an early age. Yeah, that made it worse. Walking around at 12yo knowing you're a big freak and different (in bad way) from all the other girls doesn't inspire "elitism" 10 years later.

                It's also bullshit to assume that just because we first knew we were lesbians when young means we also accepted it that young. I know I didn't.

                Also: yes, gay men do go by goldstar sometimes (seen some people in this thread saying gay men don't do this shit. yes they do). why would you expect something that started with lesbians to be as big with gay men? in fact, their version of platinum star is a gay man born through C-section (which is probably more of a joke).

                [–]LenaScrpn1111 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                Wait, what’s platinum star? Tried looking it up and got more than one answer.

                [–]StoneyTangawizi1 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                It means a lesbian who never been with a guy in anyway whether kissing, dating one or fucking/doing anything sexual with one. It was a term coined to be different from goldstars, who might have kiss or date but never fuck/been sexually intimate with a dude.

                [–]lovelyspearmint 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

                The first time I heard about it was from a bisexual friend, not a lesbian. Nuff said.

                [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                in our circles it had always been a non-issue.

                good plan right here.