Anti-Master Doc document circulating on social media, comphet-supporting "lesbians" are losing their minds

submitted by [deleted] from self.Lesbians

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]peaked2020 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I agree that the master doc is silly and am happy to see pushback on it finally... and it’s woke so I’m glad that they can’t immediately say TERF...

But this author... don’t like her either. She keeps saying lesbians can like men basically and that our definition needs to be clarified. As if people don’t understand what the word lesbian means she even says “bi dykes” are valid... over snd over she makes this point that lesbians should not have to not be attracted to men.

Then she says some things are TERF that are not. For example she says seeing feminine men as women is TERF. But TERFs say all men, no matter how feminine are just men and even trans women are just men...

[–]TalerTest 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

EDIT: oops I didn't mean to respond to you but I'll leave it lol

"My main issues with the document are:

  1. That it is full of misinformation and unresearched theory, including but not exclusive radical feminism and politcal lesbianism.

  2. A lot of that misinformation is bigoted, specifically misogynistic, ableist, biphobic and transphobic

  3. I believe it to be the most malicious in its bi-erasure and, if I'm being perfectly honest, its weird kind of conversion rhetoric."

So she's thinks the CompHet master doc is biphobic and bi-erasure and guilty of preaching conversion rhetoric. I'm a little confused about the conversion therapy part. Does she think that we lesbians want to convince every woman that she's a lesbian or something? Uhh we've been trying to get fetishistic straight women to fuck off for the longest time. We're definitely not out to convert anyone here. And as for "bi-erasure", that's got nothing to do with us. Bisexual women have been erasing themselves forever. When you tell them matter-of-factly that they're bisexual and not lesbians they will gut you.

She doesn't realize that the Master Doc is homophobic.

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, from what I can tell most "terfs" and "rad fems" think that doc is a load of shit because it convinces women who have been / are attracted to men that they're "lesbians"— erasing the complex lived experience of bisexuals and straight women with their sexuality and the definition of lesbian women and the lesbian experience of exclusive homosexual attraction in the process.

[–]LeaveAmsgAfterBeep 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes a lot of bi women imo in the areas where things like comphet are popular, seem to think there are camps of lesbians (often not just poli lez) who want to convert bisexuals and straight women into lesbians. One time I told a lady that literally no lesbian has such an agenda and if she did it would be fucked up and she called me a rape apologist out of no where. This wasn’t my only experience with that type, its a weird “lesbians are trying to erase bi women’s existence” when lesbians are frequently trying to tell bisexual women to not call themselves lesbians when they are bi, or telling other people that a woman who enjoys fucking men isn’t a lesbian but at least bi or straight. It’s... a weird internet phenomena where people forget bisexual people are oppressed in the real world by things that negatively affect homosexual people, and may also face some microagressions and bullying in any community, but ultimately online the worst thing to “happen to bi people” is people forget they’re bi while in a heterosexual marriage... I feel bad for bisexuals who still live in reality, I genuinely do, and I feel bad even for those who read things and get caught up and confused in the moment but realistically a google doc written by a 19 year old on tumblr probably shouldn’t have made their source cut to begin with...

[–]just_lesbian_things 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

its a weird “lesbians are trying to erase bi women’s existence” when lesbians are frequently trying to tell bisexual women to not call themselves lesbians when they are bi, or telling other people that a woman who enjoys fucking men isn’t a lesbian but at least bi or straight

Seriously. Every lesbian I know want the distinction between bi and lesbian to be crystal clear. Everytime there's someone who likes the ambiguity and refuse to clarify or purposefully mislead it turns out to be a bi woman. They're always the ones using terms like "lesbian " on themselves too. I never see full on lesbians call themselves bisexual as an "umbrella term".

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]TalerTest 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I guess so, but it annoys me that she thinks lesbians are trying to convert bisexual women. She doesn't understand that it's her fellow bisexual women who are going around telling every other non-lesbian woman that she's a lesbian. Someone needs to tell this woman that the most bi-phobic biphobes are bisexuals and "bi-erasure" is an internal problem that they only have themselves to blame for.

    [–]yousaythosethings 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    To me, she's saying this was created by a political lesbian. She seems to correctly identify the concept of political lesbians. But she fails to point out that political lesbians aren't actual lesbians (or at least mostly aren't) and that they're mostly straight and bisexual women.

    However, she fails in also conflating political lesbian with RadFem with TERF. Those aren't synonyms even though they can overlap. She makes it clear that she has no idea what a "TERF" is and seems to conflate it with obsession with gender conformity. She is able to identify the misogyny espoused by political lesbians, but funny enough not the misandry. Her piece is littered with generalizations about men sucking, not merely that having bad experiences/relationships with men is a common experience for women and does not indicate lesbianism.

    [–]TalerTest 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    I'm really struggling to understand what her definition of lesbian is. At one point she even says, "Also, whilst the label of lesbian can be used by any woman technically, politically and culturally, that does not mean that you can identify with the idea of being attracted (sexually, romantically or otherwise) to women. You are either attracted to other women, or you are not"

    Is she saying that anyone can call themselves a lesbian as long as they specify whether it's a political label to them or a sexual one?? Well if that's the case then why does she care if bisexual women want to call themselves lesbians? Doesn't that completely cancel out her entire point?

    [–]yousaythosethings 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    She doesn’t care at all if bisexual women want to call themselves lesbians. She totally supports that as long as those women also recognize that they are bisexual. That’s the entire gist of this.

    This is from memory, but she mentions that “lesbian” has many definitions and mentions two, and neither of which is female homosexuality. She sprinkles a few other definitions throughout the text. The only time she comes close to defining “lesbian” as female homosexuality is in response to one of the points, she says “that’s not homosexuality.” She does accurately point out that the Master Doc is premised on the idea that lesbian = lack of attraction to man gender and not even lack of attraction to man gender coupled with attraction to woman gender. She can’t say “female homosexuality” because she’s trying to validate the idea of a trans lesbian and ground everything in Queer Theory. So we end up with a big mess of her using “lesbian” to mean many different things as is convenient without her specifying, so she does exactly what she criticizes the Master Doc for doing.

    The main problem is that she’s not actually concerned at all with what a lesbian is, which is why she doesn’t care whether it has a clear definition or not. She’s only concerned about what a bisexual is. She makes it clear that she can be both lesbian and bisexual. Only lesbians don’t get our own word with a stable meaning. So in waxing poetic about bi erasure, she commits lesbian erasure, just in the opposite way that she’s thinking about, since even she implies that women are reading the doc thinking they’re lesbians when they’re not. But again, she’s personally only concerned about a self-accepting or questioning bisexual reading this and becoming convinced she’s not bisexual, but rather lesbian. Discussions of erasure can get so tired though. We are all focused on our own shit and agendas. We can’t be focused on and mindfully “inclusive” of everyone at all times. Both she and the Master Doc try to shoe horn in trans people in ways that blow up their entire point, water down meaning, and make them hypocritical.

    She is also wrong that this was written by a TERF. It was written by a queer theory loving misandrist political lesbian who is dollars to donuts either bisexual or straight. But she doesn’t care whether political lesbians misappropriate lesbianism as long as such individuals recognize their bisexuality.

    [–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    The main problem is that she’s not actually concerned at all with what a lesbian is, which is why she doesn’t care whether it has a clear definition or not. She’s only concerned about what a bisexual is.

    There we go. That's a core part of the problem with this piece of writing. I'm only 10 pages in or so and I keep waiting for her talk talk about like, "ground rules, these are our definitions" sorta thing and she hasn't, and I suspect she never does.

    I liked your takedown much more. Wish we could get that famous on twitter. 😆

    The hatred she's gotten for this piece, though, makes me hesitate to even post long pieces of saidit. I don't know who's actually leading this doxxing army of 14 year olds but if she got that level of flack for this queer-theory-positive piece of writing, people would really hate a "document" that defines lesbian as female exclusive same-sex attraction.

    [–]yousaythosethings 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I have no problem with people spreading out my ideas, adapting them, or taking ownership over them or whatever. I’d like to personally avoid an army of bored straight girls and transbians attacking me.

    Instead we should just make our own brief Master Doc. I just wrote this as kind of a joke in a few mins but I think it’s already better than this other Mumbo Jumbo: (1) What led you to look up whether you’re a lesbian? What else is going on in your life? (2) Are you drawn to this doc because you’ve felt attraction to a woman in real life? What did that feel like? How did your body respond? (3) Do you feel actual attraction to women in the real world outside of your head, so more than just porn, hypothetical women, and celebrities? (4) Go outside and walk around. Who are your eyes drawn to and why? (5) What are you attracted to in women/women’s bodies/appearances? (6) Hook up with a woman. Thoughts? (7) Do you have an aversion to or lack of interest in men IRL? In what scenarios or ways? How does it feel when a man demonstrates romantic or sexual interest in you? (8) Mostly the same questions, but change the sexes + do you have desire or interest in hooking up with a man?

    But then you run into the problem of how this really just needs to be grounded in real world experiences and feelings. Like it doesn’t mean you have to be physically engaging with other women but that you’re thinking about feelings in your body as you see and interact with women IRL. I think all the comments are right that if someone spends too much time in their own head they’re just going to start shoe horning things in to fit their desired narrative. I think some of the most telling things are why the woman is looking up whether she’s a lesbian and how connected or not that is to the real world. And of course woman will always be defined as biological female.