all 28 comments

[–][deleted] 32 insightful - 6 fun32 insightful - 5 fun33 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

I have started reading that. I have learnt that the creator of the masterdoc was a 19 year old who wrote it over two nights and posted it on tumblr. And here there are 30+ year old women thinking they are lesbians after long marriages to men and sometimes kids because they read a google doc written by a 19 year old over the course of two nights.

[–]BigMommyMilkers 20 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Why anyone needs a written guide to figure out their own sexuality in the first place is beyond me.

[–]Athelhilda2 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Autistic people sometimes have issues understanding sexuality and gender, that or they live a very sheltered and socially isolated life.

[–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Did she even write it? I thought she compiled a bunch of tumblr posts together lmao

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

that's probably even worse.

[–]peaked2020 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I agree that the master doc is silly and am happy to see pushback on it finally... and it’s woke so I’m glad that they can’t immediately say TERF...

But this author... don’t like her either. She keeps saying lesbians can like men basically and that our definition needs to be clarified. As if people don’t understand what the word lesbian means she even says “bi dykes” are valid... over snd over she makes this point that lesbians should not have to not be attracted to men.

Then she says some things are TERF that are not. For example she says seeing feminine men as women is TERF. But TERFs say all men, no matter how feminine are just men and even trans women are just men...

[–]TalerTest 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

EDIT: oops I didn't mean to respond to you but I'll leave it lol

"My main issues with the document are:

  1. That it is full of misinformation and unresearched theory, including but not exclusive radical feminism and politcal lesbianism.

  2. A lot of that misinformation is bigoted, specifically misogynistic, ableist, biphobic and transphobic

  3. I believe it to be the most malicious in its bi-erasure and, if I'm being perfectly honest, its weird kind of conversion rhetoric."

So she's thinks the CompHet master doc is biphobic and bi-erasure and guilty of preaching conversion rhetoric. I'm a little confused about the conversion therapy part. Does she think that we lesbians want to convince every woman that she's a lesbian or something? Uhh we've been trying to get fetishistic straight women to fuck off for the longest time. We're definitely not out to convert anyone here. And as for "bi-erasure", that's got nothing to do with us. Bisexual women have been erasing themselves forever. When you tell them matter-of-factly that they're bisexual and not lesbians they will gut you.

She doesn't realize that the Master Doc is homophobic.

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, from what I can tell most "terfs" and "rad fems" think that doc is a load of shit because it convinces women who have been / are attracted to men that they're "lesbians"— erasing the complex lived experience of bisexuals and straight women with their sexuality and the definition of lesbian women and the lesbian experience of exclusive homosexual attraction in the process.

[–]LeaveAmsgAfterBeep 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes a lot of bi women imo in the areas where things like comphet are popular, seem to think there are camps of lesbians (often not just poli lez) who want to convert bisexuals and straight women into lesbians. One time I told a lady that literally no lesbian has such an agenda and if she did it would be fucked up and she called me a rape apologist out of no where. This wasn’t my only experience with that type, its a weird “lesbians are trying to erase bi women’s existence” when lesbians are frequently trying to tell bisexual women to not call themselves lesbians when they are bi, or telling other people that a woman who enjoys fucking men isn’t a lesbian but at least bi or straight. It’s... a weird internet phenomena where people forget bisexual people are oppressed in the real world by things that negatively affect homosexual people, and may also face some microagressions and bullying in any community, but ultimately online the worst thing to “happen to bi people” is people forget they’re bi while in a heterosexual marriage... I feel bad for bisexuals who still live in reality, I genuinely do, and I feel bad even for those who read things and get caught up and confused in the moment but realistically a google doc written by a 19 year old on tumblr probably shouldn’t have made their source cut to begin with...

[–]just_lesbian_things 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

its a weird “lesbians are trying to erase bi women’s existence” when lesbians are frequently trying to tell bisexual women to not call themselves lesbians when they are bi, or telling other people that a woman who enjoys fucking men isn’t a lesbian but at least bi or straight

Seriously. Every lesbian I know want the distinction between bi and lesbian to be crystal clear. Everytime there's someone who likes the ambiguity and refuse to clarify or purposefully mislead it turns out to be a bi woman. They're always the ones using terms like "lesbian " on themselves too. I never see full on lesbians call themselves bisexual as an "umbrella term".

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]TalerTest 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I guess so, but it annoys me that she thinks lesbians are trying to convert bisexual women. She doesn't understand that it's her fellow bisexual women who are going around telling every other non-lesbian woman that she's a lesbian. Someone needs to tell this woman that the most bi-phobic biphobes are bisexuals and "bi-erasure" is an internal problem that they only have themselves to blame for.

    [–]yousaythosethings 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    To me, she's saying this was created by a political lesbian. She seems to correctly identify the concept of political lesbians. But she fails to point out that political lesbians aren't actual lesbians (or at least mostly aren't) and that they're mostly straight and bisexual women.

    However, she fails in also conflating political lesbian with RadFem with TERF. Those aren't synonyms even though they can overlap. She makes it clear that she has no idea what a "TERF" is and seems to conflate it with obsession with gender conformity. She is able to identify the misogyny espoused by political lesbians, but funny enough not the misandry. Her piece is littered with generalizations about men sucking, not merely that having bad experiences/relationships with men is a common experience for women and does not indicate lesbianism.

    [–]TalerTest 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    I'm really struggling to understand what her definition of lesbian is. At one point she even says, "Also, whilst the label of lesbian can be used by any woman technically, politically and culturally, that does not mean that you can identify with the idea of being attracted (sexually, romantically or otherwise) to women. You are either attracted to other women, or you are not"

    Is she saying that anyone can call themselves a lesbian as long as they specify whether it's a political label to them or a sexual one?? Well if that's the case then why does she care if bisexual women want to call themselves lesbians? Doesn't that completely cancel out her entire point?

    [–]yousaythosethings 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    She doesn’t care at all if bisexual women want to call themselves lesbians. She totally supports that as long as those women also recognize that they are bisexual. That’s the entire gist of this.

    This is from memory, but she mentions that “lesbian” has many definitions and mentions two, and neither of which is female homosexuality. She sprinkles a few other definitions throughout the text. The only time she comes close to defining “lesbian” as female homosexuality is in response to one of the points, she says “that’s not homosexuality.” She does accurately point out that the Master Doc is premised on the idea that lesbian = lack of attraction to man gender and not even lack of attraction to man gender coupled with attraction to woman gender. She can’t say “female homosexuality” because she’s trying to validate the idea of a trans lesbian and ground everything in Queer Theory. So we end up with a big mess of her using “lesbian” to mean many different things as is convenient without her specifying, so she does exactly what she criticizes the Master Doc for doing.

    The main problem is that she’s not actually concerned at all with what a lesbian is, which is why she doesn’t care whether it has a clear definition or not. She’s only concerned about what a bisexual is. She makes it clear that she can be both lesbian and bisexual. Only lesbians don’t get our own word with a stable meaning. So in waxing poetic about bi erasure, she commits lesbian erasure, just in the opposite way that she’s thinking about, since even she implies that women are reading the doc thinking they’re lesbians when they’re not. But again, she’s personally only concerned about a self-accepting or questioning bisexual reading this and becoming convinced she’s not bisexual, but rather lesbian. Discussions of erasure can get so tired though. We are all focused on our own shit and agendas. We can’t be focused on and mindfully “inclusive” of everyone at all times. Both she and the Master Doc try to shoe horn in trans people in ways that blow up their entire point, water down meaning, and make them hypocritical.

    She is also wrong that this was written by a TERF. It was written by a queer theory loving misandrist political lesbian who is dollars to donuts either bisexual or straight. But she doesn’t care whether political lesbians misappropriate lesbianism as long as such individuals recognize their bisexuality.

    [–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    The main problem is that she’s not actually concerned at all with what a lesbian is, which is why she doesn’t care whether it has a clear definition or not. She’s only concerned about what a bisexual is.

    There we go. That's a core part of the problem with this piece of writing. I'm only 10 pages in or so and I keep waiting for her talk talk about like, "ground rules, these are our definitions" sorta thing and she hasn't, and I suspect she never does.

    I liked your takedown much more. Wish we could get that famous on twitter. 😆

    The hatred she's gotten for this piece, though, makes me hesitate to even post long pieces of saidit. I don't know who's actually leading this doxxing army of 14 year olds but if she got that level of flack for this queer-theory-positive piece of writing, people would really hate a "document" that defines lesbian as female exclusive same-sex attraction.

    [–]yousaythosethings 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I have no problem with people spreading out my ideas, adapting them, or taking ownership over them or whatever. I’d like to personally avoid an army of bored straight girls and transbians attacking me.

    Instead we should just make our own brief Master Doc. I just wrote this as kind of a joke in a few mins but I think it’s already better than this other Mumbo Jumbo: (1) What led you to look up whether you’re a lesbian? What else is going on in your life? (2) Are you drawn to this doc because you’ve felt attraction to a woman in real life? What did that feel like? How did your body respond? (3) Do you feel actual attraction to women in the real world outside of your head, so more than just porn, hypothetical women, and celebrities? (4) Go outside and walk around. Who are your eyes drawn to and why? (5) What are you attracted to in women/women’s bodies/appearances? (6) Hook up with a woman. Thoughts? (7) Do you have an aversion to or lack of interest in men IRL? In what scenarios or ways? How does it feel when a man demonstrates romantic or sexual interest in you? (8) Mostly the same questions, but change the sexes + do you have desire or interest in hooking up with a man?

    But then you run into the problem of how this really just needs to be grounded in real world experiences and feelings. Like it doesn’t mean you have to be physically engaging with other women but that you’re thinking about feelings in your body as you see and interact with women IRL. I think all the comments are right that if someone spends too much time in their own head they’re just going to start shoe horning things in to fit their desired narrative. I think some of the most telling things are why the woman is looking up whether she’s a lesbian and how connected or not that is to the real world. And of course woman will always be defined as biological female.

    [–]TalerTest 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yeah she's very clueless in many areas.

    [–]Jillyjanejan 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    This lady is an absolute dumbass. All she does is whine about biphobia and bi-erasure. She thinks the Master Doc was created by evil lesbians to convert every bisexual woman into a lesbian. She's so far off the mark.

    She can't see how homophobic and harmful this "everyone is a lesbain" stuff is to real lesbians. She thinks we actually WANT everyone to be a lesbian. wtf

    [–]Lessom 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    This 'Master Doc' and 'Comp het' nonsense is so annoying and offensive to lesbians. Our sexuality is based on being exclusively attracted to other females. That's it.

    None of this 'I'm only attracted to the opposite sex because society has brainwashed me into being straight/bi instead of lesbian' crap.

    Notice how these women attraction is never centered around loving Women. It's always either 'my boyfriend sucks in bed or I'm aroused by lesbian porn made by and for men'

    Most of the time these women are just bored of their hetero lifestyle and want to seem 'edgy' and just crave attention. Others think being with a women is an easier option because their boyfriends don't 'get' them.

    Honestly wish they would go away and leave us in peace.

    [–]MyLongestJourney 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    What fresh hell is this? Oh wait,it is the same old hell of coercing lesbians into trying dick.

    [–]yousaythosethings 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    The funny (sad?) thing is that it purports to be the opposite because it convinces straight and bisexual women they’re lesbians, and lesbians don’t do think, right? Well in their world lesbians have and like penises because it turns out if you just brainwash a straight woman into thinking she’s a lesbian, she’s just going to go for the “lesbians” with dicks. So inclusive!

    [–]33799 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

    Hadn't really heard of this master doc before the recent LBL screenshots posted here... kinda shocking that it's such a big thing to some people, and that they would harass the author of this so much. I've never read the original but it doesn't seem like a very good thing, but neither does this rebuttal doc. I'm probably not going to end up finishing reading it, just kinda skimming at this point.

    Also, the author is bisexual, but she also wrote "I don’t want to be accused of ‘hating lesbians’ when I am one" like uh what?????

    And I thought this bit was stupid: "The bi and questioning and trans and fluid kids – kids who are already considered queerer by society than the average Ellen and Neil’s these days" — Ah yes, being OSA and SSA is more gay than being gay. Yes, not knowing if you're gay is more gay than being gay. Deciding you're special because you like both sweatpants and performing feminity is truly the gayest. Heterosexual T people who fetishize gay people are definitely the most gay.

    [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

    this kind of rhetoric, inside and outside of the queer/lgbt community, leads to discrimination and violence against bi+ people.

    Bi+? They got deluxe bisexuality now? Lol.

    [–]yousaythosethings 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Bi+ for narcissists and trenders who think attraction to both sexes isn’t “inclusive” enough.

    [–]LeaveAmsgAfterBeep 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Alright time to start drafting a take down of the take down and the original. At least they provide ample source material, eye roll. Votes on title? “Label makers don’t change abject reality”

    [–]yousaythosethings 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Well, I don't need to tell anyone here that I didn't write this. There is a lot of tunnel vision and misattribution going on in this analysis, but overall this is more good than bad IMO. It is important that someone got the conversation started, and specifically someone non-TERFY and into Queer Theory. I also saw that a trans bi person apparently made a video against the Master Doc. I don’t know that I have any interest in watching it though. But the siren needs to blare from the inside to have effect.

    There is a lot of hypocrisy and inconsistency within this analysis, but that’s what you get when you try to ground an analysis in queer theory, and when you try to make every act of erasure, big or small, about “hate.” You’re going to step on just as many other people’s toes. We all commit “erasure” to some degree because we are also so focused on ourselves and what we know and care about. We can’t care about all things. We can’t know all things. We can’t understand the complex struggles of all people, and we certainly shouldn’t be expected to be born knowing them. So while this lady's perspective is selfish and ignorant at times, we all are to some degree, I can appreciate the good in it without harping on the bad as malevolent. Overall, I think she made it pretty clear that she believes that the author of the doc is a political lesbian or is espousing ideas consistent with political lesbian. It would be helpful for her to define that more and to indicate that political lesbians aren’t “lesbians,” but she’s too stuck on the idea that “lesbian” can have a million self-serving definitions and we don’t know what someone means by “lesbian” until they indicate their definition. So while she is concerned about bisexual erasure, lesbian erasure and lesbophobia is not a concern for her. I think it’s also evident that she thinks that political lesbian = TERF. Like it can, but that’s not inherently the same thing. And let’s be real, no “TERF” is writing about “gender feelings” and women being attracted to trans women as a sign of lesbianism. Like come on, dude.

    It’s also clear that she doesn’t think actual lesbians are behind this trying to convert bisexuals because if she has been researching this topic for months and says it’s being passed around “shady” parts of the Internet, there's no way wasn't snooping around r/latebloomerlesbians for a while, and realized, as an actual bisexual, that the prosletyzers there are most definitely not lesbians themselves. For one, if she read enough posts, she likely realized she has far more concrete, real-life sexual attraction to women than them, hence her emphasis on the problem of the lack of focus of the Master Doc on attraction to the female body. And hence that she emphasizes learning from attraction you feel to actual women in your life in the real world and engaging in experiences with women over weird Internet thought exercises (Hallelujah). I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the actual bisexuals in r/LBL are the most reasonable there, even the queery ones. Lesbians won't stick around in the Upside Down for long so you're not going to get much engagement from them there. So often the only pushing back happening on these LARPers there comes from bisexuals pointing out bi erasure, and they absolutely should. It is a problem, and this is part and parcel to that.

    Also, does anyone have any idea what she's referring to here?

    It seems people’s biggest issue with me is that I tweeted, and stand by, the idea that this document is full of awful conversion rhetoric and misinformation and sending it to bisexual people (especially when unprompted) is just bigotted and mean. This kind of bigotry in the lgbt community leads to literal violence against bisexual people, the majority of who are trans and/or poc as well.

    Like obviously it's a dick move to send this to bisexual women, but the rest of it - the Master Doc leading to literal violence and bisexuals and that most bisexuals are trans or POC, what? Like does she mean in the world because most people in the world aren't white? And most bisexuals are trans? How do you figure?

    The references to "TERF rhetoric" are interesting because it shows she knows nothing about the diverse group of people who get called "TERF." Like obviously, a lot of things can get you called TERF, but I've never heard any terven woman espouse any of the things she associates with "TERFs." She seems to think TERF = obsessed with gender conformity. It's absolutely delicious that she calls the idea of a woman being attracted to a feminine/gender non-conforming man as evidence of lesbianism transphobic + TERF logic. That's one way to strike a major nerve in these female trans chasers. No one calls out the straight women who date transwomen and call themselves "lesbians" and stan the "girldick" "chasers" but that is exactly what a female trans chaser looks like IMO.

    “You wish you weren’t attracted to men / You wish you were a lesbian” I know straight women aren’t reading this but if they were they would be laughing with me.

    She gets so hyperfocused on her own group, bisexuals, that she seems to forget that straight women are reading this, as evident by her point that the Master Doc implies lesbianism is women who don't like the idea of dating men and that it's completely disconnected from lack of attraction to the female body.

    She's ignorant about lesbianism being what erases bisexuality. Well many lesbians do, but in the opposite way. Not by trying to convince bisexual women they're lesbians but by considering bisexual women straight. I'm just confused about how this woman, who I will believe is actually bisexual, and has an interest in "queer history" has somehow missed this. In reality, she is doing a lot of her own bisexual erasure throughout this post when she talks about different definitions of "lesbian," as anything other than exclusive same-sex attraction. If she endorses that a woman can have a history of attraction to men but be a "lesbian" and that bisexuals can be lesbians, how is that not bisexual erasure too? And why should anyone other than homosexual females decide the definition of "lesbian"? If "lesbian" means something else, then shouldn't homosexual females still get their own word?

    I've come to find that the way the word "ableist" is used to be tone-deaf, idiotic, and offensive, but then again someone called "ableist" on r/LBL recently because I found it relatively easy to leave my marriage and not fuck men as a lesbian. But you know, apparently the idea that if you're a lesbian, you generally have no interest in continuing to be married to a man or fucking men so ableist.

    Since this woman clearly has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), I get that she takes offense to the idea that a mental disorder can make a woman think she’s straight. But I find it can be the other way around. It is supremely unhelpful for her to compare disorders that inherently involve a weak sense of self and personal identity with anxiety and depression. My very straight long-time close friend who developed Bipolar disorder in the second half of her twenties experiences hypersexuality when she is hypomanic and manic. One of the early signs she's entered that stage is that she starts to appropriate aspects of myself and incorporate them into herself including my sexual orientation, getting my piercings, adopting my habits, interests, and goals and presenting them as her own to others. And I do suspect that a lot of women with a weak sense of self including those with BPD are among the biggest victims of this Master Doc propaganda, but for some of them I also get the sense that their "bisexuality" is inherently tied into the hypersexuality of their disorder. So it's not that they can't co-exist, but it's on a case by case basis.

    The "gender feelings" section makes this author sound like a TERF in disguise. I like that she thinks it is harmful and offensive to "trans women." I mean it is in a way harmful to the generally homosexual transsexuals with sex dysphoria. But this logic is very much the logic repeated by transbians. She's either going to give them an identity crisis, or more likely feel their wrath, especially since she shot an arrow right through the hearts of straight women + trans women in "lesbian" relationships.

    If you experience any of the things above, it does not mean you a real lesbian unless you fucking say so.

    No, dingus. You undermine your entire point and just wasted your time writing this if you are going to promulgate that all it takes to be a lesbian is to say you're one. Your target audience already made that declaration and you are basically saying that you can't question it as a result and are automatically the bad guy for doing exactly that in long form.

    Finally, the idea that Vice published an article about the MasterDoc this past summer has me howling. I’ll have to read that and also tune into the reactions to this verbal takedown in places like r/LBL.

    [–]Icebridge 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I feel in general the analysis is pretty trash even though I also dislike the masterdoc. One particular part that stuck out to me was when she didnt seem to understand the "im ok conceptually with dating men but the idea of actually having sex with them makes my stomach churn" (paraphrasing) part and interpreted it as "sex is scary". I felt this in particular is stupid because when i was desprately trying to convince myself i wasnt a lesbian, and convince myself i could be normal, i would try to imagine what being married or dating a guy would be like. I was ok with any of the hanging out stuff (i.e. just being friends/roomates) but any time i thought about something physical i wanted to vomit. I cant even imagine wanting to have sex with a guy so any conceptualization of it is inherently some degree of nonconsensual. I still feel the same way. Guess im just afraid of sex though. Weirdly enough i didn't feel the same when it came to women and I knew this even at the time. Huh.

    I didnt get the same vibe as you did with respect to qhat the author thinks of lesbians. The writer doesnt seem to understand that no one cares she is bisexual (girl we get it you probably have a boyfriend and feel lesbians are oppressing you) and that it's bisexual women who are bending over backward to call themselves lesbians, not lesbians trying to convince bisexual women they are lesbians. We do not want y'all. It's incredible how bi women can whine about how mean lesbians dont want to date them them because they're bi and then pretend we're trying to convince them they're lesbians. Like lesbians dont have the ability to be attracted to men in any capacity. We know way better than you that you calling yourself a lesbian and only dating women doesnt make it so, any more than me calling myself straight and only dating men wouldnt make it so. Although its pretty obvious what would be more psychologically damaging... considering op would be dating people she has the capacity to be attracted to... which is why i feel infuriated by her implication that this doc is conversion therapy. Like...sweetie if you think this is conversion therapy you are so tone deaf i dont know what to tell you. Lesbians dont dislike you because of "monosexism" or whatever it's because you're like this. Nothing but respect for the bi women who stay in their lane... but I hope bi women like this stick with men. Lesbians and normal bi women deserve better god damn.

    Though there are parts of the masterdoc where im like "yeah this lines up with my internalized homophobia experience" most of it is creepy ass political lesbianism and not "bi conversion therapy". And while i hate the masterdoc, i hate this op almost as much.

    [–]FlanJam 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Ngl, the person who wrote the anti-master doc seems tilted af lol. I mean, the anti-doc already feels like an angry rant, but the author is also spamming her doc all over twitter to anyone who mentions the master doc. I know people are still in quarantine but damn does she have time on her hands lmao.