Women of color, do you believe in solidarity?

submitted by SailorMoon2020 from self.Lesbians

So as we know, Biden/Harris won. During the passed days, many reports and news sources were congratulating black women for not only turning the GA state blue but also having a womping 91% vote for Biden/Harris.

Sometime yesterday, a Mexican American by the name of Eva Longoria, went on MSNBC and said "Latinas are the real heros" of the election. She went on to dismiss the actions of black women, as many would later argue.

This often happens: black women are praised and then a non-black person, usually a woman, steps up and completely swipes the floor and makes it about them(their minority group).

After seeing this done repeatedly, I personally no longer believe in solidarity. Although I am mixed, and I do believe in diversity, I do not believe in a false hope that all minorities sing 'kum bai ya' around the camp fire while holding hands. Many minority women simply do not like to see black women praise and would rather assimilate into whiteness as best as they can in America.

From Eva Longoria to Gina Rodriguez to Hailey Kyoko, the entire feminist movement...

President Lyndon B. Johnson once said:,

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

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[–]Lesbianese 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I don't. We're such a vast group of people with tons of opinions and life experiences, often differing and sometimes opposite. The idea that we can all get along perfectly seems insane to me. People tend to favor their own, too. That's not to say I'm going to give up on other minorities, racial or otherwise, but I'm not expecting them to always catch me during our trust falls.

[–]knownasness 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

no. literally every time black people are in the spotlight for anything positive, a POC tries to piggy back off of it. it's so fucking annoying. it's like we can't be celebrated by others or celebrate amongst ourselves without someone latin or asian having a damn fit and saying "well, what about us?". we do not do this to anyone. we go to bat for literally everybody but when it's our turn, people just co-opt our movement[s] and complain about how they're always excluded. it's corny. it's even worse when white people do it because they have nothing to complain about. so tired of humanity man.

[–]just_lesbian_things 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (32 children)

we go to bat for literally everybody

Do you?

I don't agree with people doing this:

someone latin or asian having a damn fit and saying "well, what about us?".

But have black communities done anything for "Latin" or "Asian" communities that wasn't by happenstance?

For one thing, I think the "Latin" and "Asian" community are far more diverse than the black community, especially the latter group, which encompasses several extremely different cultures, histories, and languages. I don't even think there's really all that much of a collective "Asian" community. North American society is trying to fit the idea of blackness and whiteness, the idea of "community", onto people who aren't part of this paradigm and it's unsurprisingly unsuccessful.

[–]SailorMoon2020[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

The civil rights movement was happenstance? The me too movement was happenstance? The Oscars are white was happenstance along with Womb Fire and more? These movements above helped many people besides those who are/were black. Yes, it was founded by black women but they also intended to help others. Me Too movement wasn't really able to accomplish that since white women stole it and ran with it.

The comment about the black community not being diverse is completely false and ignorant. However, I won't waste time explaining away on how so. Ha, like you'll understand.

[–]just_lesbian_things 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

civil rights movement was happenstance? The me too movement was happenstance? The Oscars are white was happenstance along with Womb Fire and more?

Yes. Those things aren't done with the Asian or Latin community in mind, so they're not an example of black communities "going to bat" for either of the aforementioned demographic. It's great, and black people and black communities have definitely created a lot of very important activist movements in the last few centuries. But to say this was done for Latin or Asian communities is like saying white feminists went to bat for black women because of the multitude of ways all women have benefited from the road paved by white feminists. Credit where credit is due, but I'm not attributing intention where there wasn't any.

The comment about the black community not being diverse is completely false and ignorant.

Look, if I told you I have a friend who is "Asian", what does that tell you about her? Can you tell me anything about the language she speaks? The food she eats? How she left her country of origin? When she left her country of origin? Her religion? Her skin color? Can you even begin to guess?

There's diverse and then there's diverse. Sure there are variations of culture and language within the black community, but the "dominant" narrative in North America is centered around the trans-atlantic slave trade from mostly west Africa to southern US as an inhumane response to a demand for human labor. There are variations, like the African slaves who were "moved" to Central or South America, and later waves of immigrants to the Americas either from Africa or of African descent (though some of them may not "identify" as black, preferring to identify with their nationality or ethnic group as they don't have much in common with the dominant black north american narrative). But you cannot deny the dominant narrative that the black north American community rally itself around.

On the other hand, a woman of Vietnamese descent born to a family that came to America as a refugee of the Vietnam War has next to nothing in common with an Indian Phd candidate in America on a student visa. Hell, it might piss you off, but they have less in common with each other than you do with a white American- they don't eat the same food, they don't follow the same religion, their families didn't fight the same wars, they probably didn't speak the same first languages. They don't even look alike (honestly, I would not have known Shaun King was a black man), and yet they would both share your "Asian" label. There's no dominant narrative that defines this category. It's a makeshift "other" group.

If you understand this, then I don't get how you could at any point believe that "PoC"s would join hands and sing Kumbaya. I say this not out of spite but because I think you and some black women ITT sound disappointed and really, if you knew what you were asking, you shouldn't be. The black community is great and their stories need to be told in all its details. But the rest of us have different stories and different communities and we'll continue to be a disappointment to you until you can understand and respect that.

[–]SailorMoon2020[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (21 children)

Dude, Shaun King is white LOL. He's the male version of Rachel Dozeiel-whatever.

Yall non black people really thought he was black...

[–]just_lesbian_things 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

He doesn't claim to be white. He's spoken on behalf of the black community. He says she says. Either way, I'm not interested in the gatekeeping of your community.

[–]SailorMoon2020[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

This paragraph sounds like something a trans person would say. "All one has to do is claim it and they really are it if you don't think so then you're a gatekeeping bigot".

But again, the last sentence of your paragraph confuses me-why participate in the thread to begin with if you don't care what black voices have to say?

[–]just_lesbian_things 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I mean I say the same shit to trans people who claim that other trans people aren't really trans. I don't really care, if they say they're trans and there isn't collective push back and condemnation from the community, then they're trans to me.

why participate in the thread to begin with if you don't care what black voices have to say?

I'm not interested in arguing who is or isn't black, I'm interested in discussing solidarity, of lack thereof, between "PoC". It's in the title of your post. Are you here to have a conversation or are you here to vent and lecture?

[–]SailorMoon2020[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I wanted a conversation on whether or not one believes in POC solidarity. Your comments are just you bashing on the black community compared to the other racial groups you speak of. Kind of see no point in conversing with someone who speaks ill of such a group.

[–]just_lesbian_things 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Your comments are just you bashing on the black community

WHERE?? QUOTE ME.

[–]SailorMoon2020[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I disagree with your first paragraph; when it comes down to your Asian friend, where does she live and I bet I'll get it right.

But what do you know about me? Besides for the fact I have black running through my veins. What country am I from; my parents are from? What's my first language?

This should be easy since all black people in America have the same, not really diverse history.

I agree with your last paragraph.

[–]just_lesbian_things 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

it comes down to your Asian friend, where does she live and I bet I'll get it right.

San Francisco, California. Tell me. Show me how much you love diversity.

But what do you know about me? Besides for the fact I have black running through my veins. What country am I from; my parents are from? What's my first language?

About as much as you know about me?

This should be easy since all black people in America have the same, not really diverse history.

Not exactly what I said, but I'll take a shot.

Statistically, if you're in North America it's likely that your first language is English, followed by Spanish then French. In order of descending likelihood, your black parent either descended from African slaves brought to the US, then central america then south America. There's a chance that your black parent is an immigrant, and a chance that you're an immigrant yourself, but it's slim. If you're an immigrant yourself, your place of origin by order of descending likelihood is central america, south America, Africa, then Europe.

Since you're asking me this at all, I'm guessing the truth isn't the most statistically likely. If I were a betting woman, I'd say you have a parent from central America, I'll bet Haiti or Dominican Republic, and you might've been raised bilingual with English and either French or Spanish. I don't know the other half, but since you're not bragging about it, it's probably white American, German or Irish or British or something.

[–]SailorMoon2020[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Actually my post history does show I do in fact brag about my white site which is Danish. I was born in Denmark. My mom who is black(Afro Latin) is from Puerto Rico where I lived after moving from Denmark prior to coming to the states.

The reason I didn't bring up my biracial-ness nor the fact my ethnicity is Latin in this post is because I wanted to specifically talk about the black experience when it comes to POC solidarity.

Me being biracial, counter plays into issues such as colorism within both the black and Latin community that I didn't want the topic to stray to those issues.

[–]just_lesbian_things 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

I didn't check your post history. But go on, tell me about my Asian friend like you said you would. Hold up your end of the bargain, why don't you?

[–]SailorMoon2020[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'd say Korean or Chinese.

[–]just_lesbian_things 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

No, she's Tamil. Her parents left Sri Lanka during the genocide, but she doesn't really talk about that. She was born and grew up in Canada. She moved to America to further her career as a software developer.

[–]knownasness 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

you aren't black, are you?

[–]just_lesbian_things 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nope.

[–]Sarahh 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

no POC solidarity is a myth

[–]SailorMoon2020[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Agree and agree. Needless to say, I'm way more skeptical now. I absolutely believe people should favor their own. It's sad that when the black community decided to reach out their hands to help other communites, those other communities don't have that same energy. They're all your friends until it's no longer convenient.

I used to be very supportive of us all coming together. Now I have a realistic point view and frankly I no longer give a fuck about any other community because the reality of it is...they don't give a fuck about mine.

[–]Lesbianese 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I absolutely believe people should favor their own.

Makes sense to me, you've gotta prioritize your own people. Who is gonna stand up for you if you don't, y'know? I think this whole social justice you've gotta care about and fight for all minorities 24/7 thing has been detrimental to many causes. People are spread so thin and so much is happening that things are forgotten quickly, very little gets done when you're hopping causes, and no one is focusing their energy on the stuff they're actually passionate about.

It's sad that when the black community decided to reach out their hands to help other communites, those other communities don't have that same energy.

Yeah, it's awful. I've seen that time and time again.

[–]SailorMoon2020[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I find it ironic really. Apparently, I could be mistaken but POC was coined by black women as a way for us to all come together. This was stupid. And I loathe we were lumped in with everyone. Like you said, our issues are not the same; the way one minority community interacts with another is not the same.

In fact as cynical as this is I see it as Hispanics/Asians/Jews/Arabs/white vs black. They all aim to be above us and all want to keep us down.

[–]just_lesbian_things 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Apparently, I could be mistaken but POC was coined by black women as a way for us to all come together.

For whose benefit?

In fact as cynical as this is I see it as Hispanics/Asians/Jews/Arabs/white vs black

The former isn't a collective, and it's a mistake to view them as such. In fact, Hispanic/Asians/Arabs aren't coherent communities either, imo. (I don't have enough experience with the rest to comment). You're talking about groups that have vastly different histories, values, religions and even languages. Most of them are simply not going to rally under the title assigned to them by Western society (based on the corner of the world relative to North America that they originated from). It's more ridiculous than expecting black and white Americans to get along because at least they've both been in America for a few hundred years, speak the same language, eat the same food, and follow mostly the same religion.

[–]SailorMoon2020[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Many minority women simply do not like to see black women praise and would rather assimilate into whiteness as best as they can in America.

Just in case you didn't get the implication, I'm referring to America.

For who's benefit?

Poc women of America. That was their goal. I would think that's obvious.

Over all, I agree your comments which is why I think it's stupid to form any type of alliance because majority of those groups in America only have one desire which is to be the model minority, and defy and step on blackness.

[–]just_lesbian_things 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

Poc women of America. That was their goal. I would think that's obvious.

To what end? What is being offered, exactly?

because majority of those groups in America only have one desire which is to be the model minority, and defy and step on blackness.

America is still seen as the land of opportunity around the world. There are people who will marry strangers for American citizenship. There are people who will kill for American citizenship. People risk death to enter America every day.

Outside of black, white, and American Indians, the majority of the "other" in America are =<3rd generation immigrants. Most of them have made huge sacrifices to be where they are; some of them have escaped conditions that's hard to imagine from a first world perspective. Protesting the government/American society is always going to be a hard sell to people like that.

I don't think most of them are anti-black though. At best they view black people with pity due to the historical injustice they faced; at worst they think black Americans activists are squandering an opportunity people would die for.

[–]SailorMoon2020[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I didn't create the movement, fuck, ask them who did. The only thing I heard from the grape vine is it was suppose to unite all poc. Why do you think I said the comment I said, "supposedly it's a movement that was created by black women who wanted poc to unite".

You are anti-black because your comments show you aren't sympathetic nor emphatic to the plight of black people in America. Even though history does show that majority of black Americans are here because of the slave trade, you fail and dismiss the black Americans who are coming to this country now and who are first, second, and third generation. You dismiss the civil rights movement for being only for black people and even though the main goal was to end segregation, the movement itself understood and welcomed other people who would be positively affected by the movement as well. You dismiss the hardships that black Americans have had by claiming black people in America have not had to make any sacrifices in this country.

I understand what you're saying but you will never understand what I'm saying because you are obviously skeptical that black people could possibly face any hardships.

The last sentence in your comment also proves why those communities are seeking to gain whiteness and be that of the model minority. They do not care to step on black people; they prefer to because they want to say they are better than.

[–]just_lesbian_things 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

You are anti-black because your comments show you aren't sympathetic nor emphatic to the plight of black people in America.

Do you really want emphatic sympathy? Seems like a really lame poor me attitude. I'm not emphatically sympathetic towards the Holocaust or the plight of trans people either, so I suppose I'm a transphobic anti-semite too.

I know it, I've learned it, and I'll take and support modern actions to right historical wrongs. That's probably more than you can say about your understanding of the history of your average Jane in the "Latin" or "Asian" communities. I'm never going to have the same emotional connection to black history the way I do to my own history. That's just life.

Even though history does show that majority of black Americans are here because of the slave trade, you fail and dismiss the black Americans who are coming to this country now and who are first, second, and third generation.

I literally wrote an entire paragraph on it:

There's diverse and then there's diverse. Sure there are variations of culture and language within the black community, but the "dominant" narrative in North America is centered around the trans-atlantic slave trade from mostly west Africa to southern US as an inhumane response to a demand for human labor. There are variations, like the African slaves who were "moved" to Central or South America, and later waves of immigrants to the Americas either from Africa or of African descent (though some of them may not "identify" as black, preferring to identify with their nationality or ethnic group as they don't have much in common with the dominant black north american narrative). But you cannot deny the dominant narrative that the black north American community rally itself around.

you are obviously skeptical that black people could possibly face any hardships.

I just wrote an entire essay that's a non-exhaustive list of hardships black people face. It was extensively covered in school and popular media- from the trans Atlantic slave trade, to Jim Crow and racial segregation, to Reganomics and war on drugs, to police brutality and the prison industrial complex. I'll never know the full extent of it because there's just too much, but I don't see how this would be considered "skeptical that black people could possibly face hardships". You don't know anything about the hardships the "Latin" and "Asian" communities face, and that's honestly completely fine. I don't think it makes you "anti-Latin" or "anti-Asian". But you don't get to be upset when people you don't know behave in ways you don't understand and then try to frame it as anti-blackness.

why those communities are seeking to gain whiteness and be that of the model minority. They do not care to step on black people; they prefer to because they want to say they are better than.

Some 11 year old kid who doesn't speak a lick of English being sent to live with family friends on the other side of the world as a favor to his parents for a chance at an American education and a shot at climbing out of poverty is not going to risk his stay by being anything less than as close to model citizen as he could muster.

He comes to school in the dead of winter with no jacket and a fever, and unsurprisingly ends up passing out in class. He didn't have enough of a grasp of the English language to explain to the teacher that he can't be sent home because none of the people he lives with can or want to take a day off work. If all you can take away from that is "seeking to gain whiteness" and "stepping on black people", then you're incredibly callous and I'll gladly distance myself from you.

[–]SailorMoon2020[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I'm confused on why you would comment if you don't care about the topic...

Also never said I wanted empathy or sympathy. However, your wall of text demonstrate you showing empathy and sympathy towards other racial groups. I suppose what can one expect from someone who is racist towards black people.

I'm also not upset over the situation of communities focusing on their own. If anything I'm more upset with the black women who really thought it was a good idea to create such a stupid movement such as POC Solidarity. It's no surprise though. It had good intentions...

[–]just_lesbian_things 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Also never said I wanted empathy or sympathy.

You said that I'm anti-black because I didn't demonstrate enough emphatic sympathy towards the plight of black people. Is that really where you want to draw the line for anti-blackness? At performance??

However, your wall of text demonstrate you showing empathy and sympathy towards other racial groups. I suppose what can one expect from someone who is racist towards black people.

Holy fuck. I wrote an entire paragraph about my general understanding of black history in the US (because you mentioned America). What do you want? You don't sympathize or empathize with the plight of non-black "PoC"s. Ok. I have nothing against that. You said I dismiss the struggles of black people, I write an outline detailing their struggles. You say I dismiss the struggles of black immigrants and other "minority" black narratives, I have written two paragraphs pointing it out. I have no problem with being called out on things I've done, but you haven't actually addressed anything I've said.

I grew up with non-black "PoCs". I was the kid they brought in to translate for the boy who passed out in class. I'm more familiar with their problems personally than I do with the struggles of black people, which I've had to consciously learn through textbooks, documentaries, and various black activists and media. It's never going to be perfect, and I'm not going to try to "empathize" with something I fundamentally don't understand. I don't believe false tears help anyone. I don't expect you to empathize with these problems either, but I think it's hypocritical of you to demand empathy and sympathy while not even doing the barest of research in return.

Are you the norm for black activists? Because every conversation I've had with them have devolved in this manner of random, ungrounded accusations of anti-blackness or racism or whatever. What the fuck do you even want?

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]Airbus320 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Based and lesbian pilled

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    The one thing I don't understand is why the actions of one person is the action of all. Why pick and choose when your actions are the actions of a whole community doing something you believe in and then flip and base the actions of one/several people becoming the whole community? As much as I think intersectionality is important and something everyone needs to be aware of and empathetic too I think it does more harm than good. It allows people to fester in the unfairness of the world and continue to stay in a somewhat negative mindset of putting everyone in groups.

    [–]SailorMoon2020[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    The one thing I don't understand is why the actions of one person is the action of all.

    If it was truly the actions of one then many of us wouldn't be commenting saying, "no, I no longer believe it".

    I named three high profile women who are seen as role models within their communities. When these three women spoke ill of black women, no one from their communities came forward to interject.

    In the lesbian community when the movie Carol came out, black lesbians brought up the fact Patricia Highsmith shouldn't be hailed as a hero because she was racist. The white lesbians didn't care about that. They brushed her history under a rug and said the movie was a good achievement for lesbians.

    When Eva said what she said, no other high profile Latin person stepped forward to undo her words; hence, the Latin community truly believes in her words.