My lesbian ex just came out as queer and nonbinary.

submitted by sickofit from self.Lesbians

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[–]Innisfree 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I have a friend who recently also did this. I am so tempted to ask what was her thinking behind this. I genuinely want to understand. Is it the simple "I don't feel like a woman" (in which case they give credence to the understanding of woman as the worst of what patriarchy projects on us) or is it "I want to abolish the categories of woman and man, so we are all free" . For the last case there are too many questions to write here.

Either way it is sad.

[–]carrotcake 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Ask her! Now I'm curious for you too.

[–]Innisfree 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

I think ultimately her answer will not be that interesting because it's her life and I don't want to dig into it. What is interesting is how we got into this mess in the first place - the history of thought (logical fallacy, more like). I'm reading Monique Wittig's "The Straight Thought" now. The Monique Wittig who said "lesbians are not women" and who wanted to abolish the categories of sex (not even gender) . She is also the one who inspired Judith Butler's "Gender Trouble" - the great troubler of normativity :).

So far I can say that it's like talking to a PhD student who's taken mushrooms for the first time and chased them down with a few tequila shots. There's some good stuff there, but it's swimming under a sea of barf as Strictly would say. I might come back with a post on it if my small brain will be able to gauge the greatness of her thoughts.

PS: this post is mainly in the hope that better minds than mine can start a thread on the history of queer theory and the role of lesbians in it, because it seems lesbians have started this effing mess.

[–]carrotcake 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You're right. I got curious but it's better to leave it as it is. She'll either answer something that doesn't answer it or be offended. What we really want to know is what is moving people to do this and how it all started, like you said.

And ahhhh I wish I had the knowledge to start this thread and I hope someone does that. I confess that I should have read a part of Gender Trouble for university but I was busy with other stuff and didn't do it. I still want to at some point but I also wanted to read someone that is acclaimed and criticizes her work. Unfortunately one of the only professors I have that worries with LGBT and gender history is super into queer stuff. We could do a monthly/weekly thread for reading critically works like this. If I have people to push me maybe I'd do it. I always end up reading other stuff and never go back to Butler. And yes, it's crazy that she's a lesbian!

[–]Innisfree 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No worries. I feel a lot like you about wanting to know how we got here. But so far, what i read of queer theory just feels like it's not adding in any way to a clearer vision of the world. So much of their writing is wild conjecture, they assert a premise, never explain how they got to it (this is the most maddening) and rarely bother supporting it with sound arguments. I would also start with reading some credible critique (but which one is that?) and not give Butler the time of day, unless you are really committed to understanding the schtick or you need it for uni.

Hannah Arendt has a brilliant quote about this dilemma: "Sometimes people mistake the need to think, with the desire to understand". Often when i go too deep into some "queerology" i go back to this quote and wonder am i mistaking the need to think (that is develop my own sound arguments) with a desire - an idle curiosity. Anywho, this might just be me though :)