My lesbian ex just came out as queer and nonbinary.

submitted by sickofit from self.Lesbians

There goes another one...

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[–][deleted] 18 insightful - 22 fun18 insightful - 21 fun19 insightful - 22 fun -  (1 child)

Congratulations, it's a xir!

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Zir

[–]Tarohan 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh my god, I cant. Why are there lesbians so afraid of the lesbian label and those who love it and brag (Bi's and others) misuse it? 😩 Oof.

[–]whateverman 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, exes are exes for a reason.

[–]carrotcake 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know what's worst. That they're denying they are lesbians or the denial that they're women.

[–]Innisfree 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

I have a friend who recently also did this. I am so tempted to ask what was her thinking behind this. I genuinely want to understand. Is it the simple "I don't feel like a woman" (in which case they give credence to the understanding of woman as the worst of what patriarchy projects on us) or is it "I want to abolish the categories of woman and man, so we are all free" . For the last case there are too many questions to write here.

Either way it is sad.

[–]VioletRemi 18 insightful - 4 fun18 insightful - 3 fun19 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I want to abolish the categories of woman and man, so we are all free

And yet being non-binary - is just saying "I agree with your categories, so now I am in different one".

[–]florasis 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

You can't fucking abolish biological reality

[–]carrotcake 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

Ask her! Now I'm curious for you too.

[–]Innisfree 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (48 children)

I think ultimately her answer will not be that interesting because it's her life and I don't want to dig into it. What is interesting is how we got into this mess in the first place - the history of thought (logical fallacy, more like). I'm reading Monique Wittig's "The Straight Thought" now. The Monique Wittig who said "lesbians are not women" and who wanted to abolish the categories of sex (not even gender) . She is also the one who inspired Judith Butler's "Gender Trouble" - the great troubler of normativity :).

So far I can say that it's like talking to a PhD student who's taken mushrooms for the first time and chased them down with a few tequila shots. There's some good stuff there, but it's swimming under a sea of barf as Strictly would say. I might come back with a post on it if my small brain will be able to gauge the greatness of her thoughts.

PS: this post is mainly in the hope that better minds than mine can start a thread on the history of queer theory and the role of lesbians in it, because it seems lesbians have started this effing mess.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I probably loathe non-binaries more than actual transes; non-binary straight-up betrays women.

At least trans identified males like women enough to want to BE us, no matter how misguided and unwell transes can be, or behave.

When a woman calls herself a non-binary lesbian I literally want to grab her by the bowtie and slap her. Not kidding. I never would, because that’s insane, but the urge is there. That’s how disgusted I am with people who are privileged enough to words-their-way out of womanhood, while women all over the world suffer and have no escape. If any of those non-binary cowards still call themselves feminists I hope they at least feel some shame.

They are not smashing any binaries, they are creating a new one. It’s pathetic. Woman up, cowards.

[–][deleted]  (44 children)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

    People don’t realise how pedo queer theory is

    Edit: and i think it’s illogical to break all boundaries. Why anyone would imagine that as a good thing is mystifying to me. It’s like the child who keeps doing something wrong because you told them not to. Very immature basis for theory

    Editx2: they created new, queer norms, but did nothing to better society, in the end.

    [–][deleted]  (9 children)

    [deleted]

      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

      It seriously seems like something rich eccentrics came up with at the turn of the last century. You have to have power to play with it, meanwhile, many in the world don’t even have food or medicines to treat curable disease. It’s the “let them eat cake” of theory

      EDIT: if they want to play with power they should just join some bdsm club. Lol

      [–]Innisfree 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      Oh they sure did. Incidentally, the queer theory proponents your Foucaults and Wittigs come from very Conservative Catholic families. I wonder if theres' a link / s :D

      [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

      Yeah and also a link between trans and conservative catholic families. Lots of kids from backgrounds like that end up needing to repair their own brains for years to come

      [–]Innisfree 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Shall we start an NGO for the poor things? BrainRepair.org We'll show them David Attenborough docs, for a small fee of course that will go towards reissuing The Lavender Menice manifesto lol

      [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      Also: the whole “happy hooker” thing is a perfect example of who gets fucked over from things like queer theory. WOMEN

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

        [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Yeah. I have known hookers, that happy hooker shit is straight up cam girl nonsense. I bet you’re happy when no one is touching you, dumbass. Even then it would be disgusting, but i honestly doubt there are many women working the street or escorting that are “happy hookers.”

        [–]Innisfree 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

        Really appreciate your insightful reply!

        Particularly because my angry order of some books by Foucault will take time to arrive. I think Helen Pluckrose also mentioned Foucault's influences in her tracing of the history of queer theory and gives a summary in her talk here .

        I'm dying to know who was it Butler was so miffed with - probably radfems glorifying the female goddesses Lol

        So far I found Butler's ideas, specifically on abolishing the categories of sex, clearly articulated in Wittig's writing. This article explains the connection and summarises Wittig's writings. It also makes fun of Butler misunderstanding and misusing her sources. For that alone a great read, for those who have time for a bit of schadenfreude.

        Ps: I'm sure you're well informed on the whole schtick, I just included the links for those who might be entertained by digging around a bit.

        [–][deleted]  (28 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]Innisfree 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

          Brilliant you are!

          because women are individuals who have different experiences (across stuff like race and class), it is therefore impossible for women to have ANYTHING in common EVER,

          Butler - the queen of false premises and overgeneralizations.

          Loooool about the bow ties. Spot on!

          [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (25 children)

          Well, at least we will be served our dinner more quickly at the banquet if more women are servers. Lol. Don’t think it will destroy the whole womanhood thing, but you never know.

          [–][deleted]  (24 children)

          [deleted]

            [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

            Judith Butler should have found a million pairs of legs to bury her head between instead of writing a bunch of dumb dumb stuff and being the spokesperson for this ridiculous time we have found ourselves in. I’m sure she could have found some commonalities between women by becoming an expert at head. Maybe I’ll pitch this idea to her

            [–][deleted]  (22 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]carrotcake 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

              It saddens me that so many people in academia are ok with this Foucault idea that individual resistance is the way to go.

              [–][deleted]  (1 child)

              [deleted]

                [–]carrotcake 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                Exactly

                [–]carrotcake 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                You're right. I got curious but it's better to leave it as it is. She'll either answer something that doesn't answer it or be offended. What we really want to know is what is moving people to do this and how it all started, like you said.

                And ahhhh I wish I had the knowledge to start this thread and I hope someone does that. I confess that I should have read a part of Gender Trouble for university but I was busy with other stuff and didn't do it. I still want to at some point but I also wanted to read someone that is acclaimed and criticizes her work. Unfortunately one of the only professors I have that worries with LGBT and gender history is super into queer stuff. We could do a monthly/weekly thread for reading critically works like this. If I have people to push me maybe I'd do it. I always end up reading other stuff and never go back to Butler. And yes, it's crazy that she's a lesbian!

                [–]Innisfree 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                No worries. I feel a lot like you about wanting to know how we got here. But so far, what i read of queer theory just feels like it's not adding in any way to a clearer vision of the world. So much of their writing is wild conjecture, they assert a premise, never explain how they got to it (this is the most maddening) and rarely bother supporting it with sound arguments. I would also start with reading some credible critique (but which one is that?) and not give Butler the time of day, unless you are really committed to understanding the schtick or you need it for uni.

                Hannah Arendt has a brilliant quote about this dilemma: "Sometimes people mistake the need to think, with the desire to understand". Often when i go too deep into some "queerology" i go back to this quote and wonder am i mistaking the need to think (that is develop my own sound arguments) with a desire - an idle curiosity. Anywho, this might just be me though :)

                [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                You should tell your friend shes being an asshole. Because that is accurate.

                As long as men and women have different reproductive roles the categories are not going anywhere. Non-binaries should have just stuck with challenging stereotypes instead of becoming self-hating stereotypes.

                [–]lmaonope333 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                oof

                [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

                Barf

                [–]florasis 10 insightful - 6 fun10 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

                All these girls calling themselves queers are worrying. Like bring back the dyke word, for fuck sake. At least it's a specific slur for female homosexuals, rather than this BS

                [–][deleted] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

                In the Dyke march here, bisexuals call themselves dykes, so i don’t think dyke is ours either lol

                [–]florasis 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

                The more I hear this shit, the more I get why there are so many lesbians allergic to bisexuals. I was always defending them, since have had a 5 years relationship with one. But, seems like a lot of them are cancer.

                [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                I like bi women, they should just make their own words for themselves and chill with stealing from lezzies

                [–]florasis 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                I like bi women who don't pretend to be lesbians and whose same sex attraction is serious. Many use our labels to feel cool, and then you have "lesbians" saying they like dick as long as is on a trans. Not to talk about the many self-proclaimed bi's whose attraction to females is really minimal, and for them dealing with women is more like a joke, just wanting someone to a threesome with their boyfriend or shit like that.For lesbians, dealing with girls like that is pretty devasting.

                [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                It sure is devastating. I’ve had my share of it

                [–]florasis 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                I was lucky enough. My ex was great.

                [–]plotbunny 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                Here the word dyke is used by everyone except lesbians. The dyke and trans marches have a lot of overlap.

                [–]TarshishJupiter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                Yeah... mine did too.

                "I don't identify with female words," she said.

                "That's perfectly normal," I said, "They come with so much baggage. I would be a bit concerned if a woman didn't feel some discomfort with them."

                "But for me it goes beyond that," she said.

                Like... why is her discomfort with sexism more important than anyone else's?? I don't understand. :-/

                [–]Rubyredpython 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                This girl I'm talking to just did the same thing. 😔