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[–]a_blue_bird 17 insightful - 8 fun17 insightful - 7 fun18 insightful - 8 fun -  (11 children)

Some quotes from a recent (2018) article by Sheila Jeffreys, on political lesbianism in the 70s-90s UK and on a book she wrote about it:

Lesbianism and heterosexuality were seen as socially constructed, not innate [by lesbian feminists]. So, hundreds of thousands of women internationally who might not have considered it before and been shaped by all the social pressures to be heterosexual, chose to become lesbians. This mass creation of lesbians was crucial to our politics and to everything we achieved. Now, unfortunately, the idea that lesbianism and heterosexuality, as well as masculinity and femininity are innate and cannot be changed, is fashionable even amongst many younger lesbians who see themselves as feminists. I was involved in lesbian feminism in this period. I made the choice to become a lesbian because of my politics [.......] Most were ‘political lesbians’, in the sense that they became lesbians as a result of their involvement in the WLM and exposure to lesbian feminists and lesbian feminist ideas. This practice of feminists choosing lesbianism as a form of resistance to male supremacy may seem foreign to common notions about lesbianism today, even within feminist circles, which are that lesbianism is something essential, not something that can be chosen [.....] Another chapter of the book is devoted to the crucial critique of heterosexuality which lesbian feminists created, showing that heterosexuality is not an unfortunate effect of nature, but a social construction. [....] Girls are made sexually heterosexual through the sexual attention of boys and men throughout their lives as well as the world of propaganda they are surrounded by, the porn and girls’ and women’s magazines about how to please men in bed and explaining how to do anal sex without too much pain and how to lie on a bed to enable the penis to go right down the throat. Heterosexuality is created by a culture in which all the novels in the airport bookstore are about hets, in which all the movies, plays, poetry, are still overwhelmingly het. And so on. [....] The theorising of sexuality and heterosexuality was the greatest theoretical achievement of lesbian feminism. And a most important aspect of this was the creation of political lesbianism, the idea that women could make a political choice to be lesbians.

Jeffreys is famous for claiming that she ''was once heterosexual, but then chose to be a lesbian''. And she means ''lesbian'' as in homosexual, not celibate. Her view, and as she describes it - the view of the majority of the political lesbians - was and still is that sexuality is a social construct, created through social practices and pressures, and can be changed through the same route.

Edit: Look, I found an ever better quote from her book (parts of it are readable on Google):

Today .. there is much opposition in the online lesbian community to the idea that a woman who has been heterosexual can or should become a lesbian at all. There is a resurgence of the nineteenth-century sexological idea that lesbianism is an innate condition. The understanding that sexuality is not fixed enabled thousands of women to leave heterosexuality at the time of the WLM and become lesbians. As feminist social constructionist influence waned, the biological determinism that was always more favoured by gay men came to prominence again.

Who's a basic bitch now?

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Most women who end up lesbian think they are heterosexual, which is the reason it causes so much strife for us. Women think they are straight first and don’t even recognize lesbianism. Political lesbianism made it possible to explore sexual orientation, and now many of us have begun to see it is innate, myself included. What’s your actual point?

Edit: do you support women who have slept with men never coming out? Lots of lesbians are literally saying that now, when it is so common for lesbians to sleep with men, or believe they are heterosexual before realizing they are lesbians. Women who have had heterosexual sex come out as lesbians a lot.

[–]a_blue_bird 17 insightful - 4 fun17 insightful - 3 fun18 insightful - 4 fun -  (9 children)

My actual point is that your claim ''Women that were not attracted to other women were not cosplaying lesbians in the 60s and 70s, for Christ’s sake'' is simply false. Not only did they do it then, but they are still doing it now. And they're not even hiding any of their views on sexuality being a social construct, as opposed to a fixed, innate trait.

Most women who end up lesbian think they are heterosexual

True if you take into account all the political lesbians.

Edit: do you support women who have slept with men never coming out?

I support women who say ''I used to be heterosexual once'' never coming out as lesbians.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

POLITICAL LESBIAN DOES NOT MEAN THEY FUCKED WOMEN. They were not out there being literal fake lesbians luring in women to have fake lesbian sex with and that was the whole movement. They were centring women and women’s issues politically. “Political lesbianism.” They were in the political lesbian movement, and called themselves “political lesbians.” Which does not mean sex with women as a given. It was just possible. I like the idea of a world where realising you’re a lesbian is possible. Many women don’t even know how to get off, let alone get off with a partner. Man or woman.

The word “lesbian” is clearly what is getting confused here. Lots of lesbians WERE “heterosexual” if you count their behaviour in dating and sleeping with men. That is heterosexual behaviour. I doubt many lesbians who did that would have called themselves “formerly straight” but instead say they came out.

And like or or not, some women really do get to choose (bisexuals) and sometimes think they are lesbians or straight for years. We all had to choose to explore and people like Sheila Jeffreys said it was okay, and lots of us are here now experiencing a different kind of oppression from those who think gender is INNATE. Etc. I’m not a fan of lesbian cosplayers any more than the rest of you, I’m a goldstar, but I doubt I could have been a goldstar if not for the idea that some women are lesbians and I got to explore that, and it’s directly related to what women did in the 60s and 70s.

[–]a_blue_bird 19 insightful - 6 fun19 insightful - 5 fun20 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

They were centring women and women’s issues politically.

Absolutely, lol. When Sheila Jeffreys writes ''sexuality is not fixed, it is an old fashioned 19th century sexological belief that lesbianism is innate'' she actually means ''you should shop in women owned stores and vote for abortion rights!'' Wow, how did I not connect the dots myself??

We all had to choose to explore and people like Sheila Jeffreys said it was okay

No, people like Sheila said that sexuality is a social construct, and it is anti-feminist to still choose to fuck men when you can socialize yourself into lesbianism. She constantly uses the word sexuality for a reason. It is about sex.

To put it simply - you're in massive denial about political lesbianism.

[–]oofreesouloo 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

This.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

So they were not centring women and women’s issues?

It is possible to disagree with her, and believe that lesbianism is innate to many of us, without making an entire political movement and my defence of it to me being “in massive denial.” It takes a lot more denial to be so reductive about a entire movement for women.

[–]oofreesouloo 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

So if me, as a lesbian, decided now that I only wanted to date men because I firmly believe in the "traditional" view of the family and believe the child should have a mother and a father, I could call myself a political straight woman? See how ridiculous that is? (this was just a random example). Again, I don't care about the reasons - it's NOT right to say you're a lesbian when you're not. Simple as that. You can fight for women's rights without resorting to the lesbian label, jeeeez.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I see how ridiculous your example is. I would call you a “typical straight woman,” and lots of women who are stuck in religious homes actually do deny their own lesbianism and political lesbianism and the original discussions about comphet actually helped them not have to do that. Btw it was still legal to RAPE your wife in the 60s in America. That’s the world that Political Lesbians tried to save women from. Your husband could rape you. Being politically a lesbian meant loving women and yourself enough to try to save eachother from THAT.

But you know, what a bunch of fakers. I wish they stayed married to men who were legally allowed to rape them instead of considering becoming an asexual or celibate woman and joining the Political Lesbian movement to live with women and be safe.

[–]oofreesouloo 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Again, I have nothing against them becoming an asexual or celibate woman and heck, even creating a political movement. Just don't call it lesbianism! Simple.

[–]lairacunda 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"I wish they stayed married to men who were legally allowed to rape them instead of considering becoming an asexual or celibate woman and joining the Political Lesbian movement to live with women and be safe."

But why do you have to lie about being a lesbian?

[–]lairacunda 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

POLITICAL LESBIAN DOES NOT MEAN THEY FUCKED WOMEN

That's my point exactly. And if you don't fuck women and you're a woman, how exactly is it that you are a lesbian?

You can center women, you can walk away from men and the patriarchy all you want. But fucking women is the sine qua non of being a lesbian.

We don't all "choose to explore". Even if you're comp-hetting you know you are living a lie.

You can have an unhappy, straight relationship trying to make it work and lying to yourself. Just because you go through the motions of being straight doesn't mean you ARE straight. So, "Lots of lesbians WERE “heterosexual” " is a self-cancelling statement. If they were heterosexual then they are not lesbians. If they are lesbians then they were lesbians pretending and trying to be straight.