Have you tried engaging in discussion with lesbians you know about the state of the lesbian community/LGBTQ “community”/genderism?

submitted by yousaythosethings from self.Lesbians

Hey lesbos. I have been feeling increasingly bold and would like to put my feelers out on the potential for discussion with other lesbians, gays, straights, etc. I know IRL about their experiences with the current state of being a lesbian (If they are one), how things have changed, how they see things trending, whether they’ve noticed the gender capture of all of the organizations that claim to represent us, what they’ve noticed in general, what their concerns are, what they think terves are, how they’re feeling etc. etc.

I assume most of you know exactly where the gays in your life stands or at least did at some point and that’s why you’re here as refugees. Am I about to kamikaze myself?

I’m trying to be careful and to do a barometer check, ask a few open-ended questions only and listen. I’ve been having discussions about things like cancel culture and woke capitalism and things like that and I think it’s a good inroad to start these uncomfortable discussions.

I just wanna have real dialogues goddamnit.

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[–]CJLez 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know anyone well enough yet in the community to talk about issues - the closest I came to hearing anything GC being discussed was this conversation when I joined a local LGBT meetup group...

Me: Are there any other groups nearby?

60(ish) year old Lesbian: There is another group out in XYZ. (Sadly 35+ so I'm not old enough to apply yet.)

19 year old Gay man: (suddenly very angry) oh THAT group. The person who runs it is so horrible! She came to a documentary about Stonewall and she said there were too many black people and too many trans people in it!She's so awful! (I wonder if this woman might have been talking about Marsha specifically rather than black people in general. Hopefully.)

60 y/o L: (very gently) well.. sometimes you need to just let people realise things in their own time. (Then instantly changed the conversation topic.)

Could she be GC? Could she just have not wanted to listen to what was shaping up to be a huge rant? No idea.

[–]whateverman 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You may or may not kamikaze yourself. Death threats, stalking, assault, harassment are all knocking on your door as soon as you say a word to the wrong ear. Not all of us have Rowling's fuck-you money or celebrity. If you want to have those sorts of discussions, it might be worth it to connect with a radical feminist group in your area so that if you lose friends, you still have a community to connect with.

[–]Astrid2448 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It depends on how you handle it. You can probably start off with a low risk topic like trans women in women’s sports.

[–]yousaythosethings[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think that's a great initial topic. When my (straight) female best friend was feeling out where I am on trans issues after she was noticing some things, but didn't have the vantage point to understand, the three things she raised open-endedly with me were (1) trans males in women's sports, (2) the JK Rowling/Maya Forstater fiasco, and (3) erasure of women's language with regard to things like pregnancy and menstruation. At the time, I had already seen a piece written by an academic I know personally that was about keeping sports based on biological sex and talking about the advantages of the male body over the female body. I perked up at that because the author was an athlete herself and I trusted her perspective and knew she wasn't hateful. So that seed was planted. When my friend engaged me on this topic, I was still inclined toward as a default being pro-trans and so I said that I think you would have to look at each sport on a case by case basis and how biological sex differences were implicated. I said something like "I don't think we should say categorically yes or no" but I recognized that there were going to be some sports where male biology gave too much of an advantage and that "trans women" should therefore not be permitted to compete among female athletes but could compete with their fellow biological males. I think my friend brought up Rachel McKinnon and at the time I didn't know what a POS that narc is. Also, my friend does or at least used to do boxing. I don't think she brought up Fallon Fox. She might not have even known about Fallon Fox. That would have peaked me right away.

On the subject of Maya and JK. I saw JK's tweets and they didn't seem problematic to me, but I think I thought they were kind of a straw man. Like my perspective was "no one is saying biological sex is real." So I figured I was missing something. With the actual legal situation with Maya, well I'm a lawyer but not UK based, so I was only looking at whether she had a good legal argument and she didn't, so I figured it was some political stunt. I didn't actually see her tweets though. I tried looking up "gender critical" and all I could find was propaganda about terves being female incels who want to enforce gender stereotypes and who are "in bed with the alt right." Later when I started peaking for real I went back and read Maya's tweets that were evidence in the case, suddenly everything made sense. Her legal case was a political stunt, but I suddenly understood why.

As far as the erasure of women's language, I had not yet seen these examples for myself. So when my friend was saying that she saw people using this language, I thought it was very fringe, and I said that that's nuts and that of course women's language should be preserved. Why would it have to be inclusive of people who every knows aren't women? I still thought TWAW was just about being nice. I still think most liberals are thinking this. I also didn't know that trans people were trying to deny their biological sex and I didn't get why they would. Isn't that what makes them trans? I didn't know that women's health organizations were basically removing references to "female" sex in an effort to be "inclusive." Once I saw this in action, it was more peaking for me.

If you include everyone in a protected class, the practical effect is that you exclude the people who were originally meant to be protected by that category.

So all of the seeds were planted for me, but it wasn't until I started spending more time in the "LGBTQ+ community" that I saw that people actually did think all of these things I thought were fringe. This is why we who have the closest knowledge need to bring the real world examples to those who will otherwise not be face to face with it, but will still be subject to all of the changes to law and expectations in their behavior and speech.

There was actually SO much I noticed before and just figured I didn't understand and that there had to be more to it. I tried understanding non-binary and it seemed like gender stereotypes so I figured I didn't understand. Eventually i came to realize that I understood perfectly and that we just need to be able to talk openly about this kind of stuff to wake people up and get them to stop outsourcing their thinking to people they think are their allies and have their best interests at heart.

Anyway, my friend has a lot of friends in the "LGBTQ+ community" because she used to work at a bar in our local gay community. She noticed a lot of infighting and hostility happening on facebook and some extreme ideology coming from people she knew personally, particularly a girl she knew from elementary school who she always figured was autistic, who eventually came out as lesbian then non-binary then as a trans men and was posting really extreme deranged and aggressive shit on Facebook. My friend wouldn't have peaked if she hadn't seen that stuff coming from someone she knew, didn't later engage me in discussion, and then didn't later have me share my insight from my own integration into the "LGBTQ+ community" as a late bloomer lesbian. My friend also knows me really well and knows that I'm more interested in getting things right than being right, and that I can change my mind and admit to being wrong, so thankfully we were able to have that dialogue.

[–]mangosplums 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for this. I agree with you that most people go along with the TRA agenda because they just don't realize yet how toxic it actually is. They think "TERFS" are making it up. I wish JKR had included citations and links to examples of the things she talked about in her essay because it's easy to read her essay and dismiss everything she talks about as "that never actually happens" which is why I believe so many people can read her essay and think the things she talks about aren't actually happening and that she's exaggerating and mischaracterizing things. The TRAs are doing a really good job right now of suppressing and censoring any evidence of this stuff, so the mainstream just does not believe it's going on. I'm just quietly waiting until it hits the mainstream, because it will. I just watched that video of the girl from tiktok who said that it's ok for lesbians to say they don't like dick, and then the video of her apologizing for saying that and for using the phrases "male genitalia" and "female genitalia" because she didn't realize that those terms were hateful and hurtful terms. There's no way that this kind of insane rhetoric and bullying can uphold itself in the mainstream. As the TRAs rhetoric gets more and more mainstream we will see people finally realizing. I'm just sitting back and twiddling my thumbs till it happens.

[–]julesburm1891 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You’re bold and I like you.

Here are my small rebellions. 1. Refusing to use the LGBTQ or LGBT acronyms. I know it’s petty, but I think it’s important that we separate ourselves from TQ as much as possible. I work for a large library system and I’m quietly working to rebrand all of our pride materials as individual entities.
2. Asking people to not call me queer. This has, oddly enough, come up a few times with my coworkers. I’m politely letting people know that I don’t like being called a slur and prefer lesbian or homosexual. It’s started some conversations. I think people have walked away with the understanding that LGB people aren’t a monolith and we shouldn’t thoughtlessly use blanket terms. 3. Using “homosexual,” “same-sex attracted,” or “same-sex couple” as often as I can when it’s pertinent. (You know, without making it weird.) I want to reiterate that lesbians are homosexuals as much as I can. 4. Being vocally against cancel culture to the people in my life. Let’s be real, this has gotten so bad because people are afraid of being canceled. Supporting free speech and expression (even when I personally disagree) is something worth standing up for. 5. Refusing to call relationships between between transwomen and women lesbian. (Again, petty.) I don’t roll out calling them straight, but I will not validate them by letting them use our word. (Same for the gay equivalent.) This actually comes up a bunch in my life and I use partner or spouse to describe SOs for these cases. I just say relationship, marriage, or couple too. I don’t add a modifier. 6. Starting the tough conversations with people I’m close to. I’ve found the best way to do this is let the conversation come up naturally and making sure I stay calm and composed no matter what happens. I try not to sound incredibly authoritative, but ask questions to make people think. (Going for a Socratic approach.) So far, I haven’t lost anyone. My gf and I had a big fight about one issue, but we’ve talked through it.

Things that seem to have gotten through to people: A. If lesbian can mean attracted to females and feminine presenting males, what should women who are exclusively same-sex attracted call ourselves? B. Sex and gender aren’t the same thing. (When someone freaks out that I’ve said male or female. It’s kind of cheap, but playing into their language without directly confronting them seems to work.) C. Language is meant to describe, not be an ideal to belong to. If I can’t describe myself, what does that even mean?

[–]yayblueberries 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is where I've been at with people I know generally well. Not that they have been receptive. I've also brought up how illogical it is for them to act like they understand what a lesbian is and then turn right around and expect me to have interest in and support transwomen. That makes ZERO sense. And is why the L needs to be removed from the alphabet soup. Because straight people believe lesbians are huge allies of transwomen and that we want their Ds. I've had two different people, on coming out to them, do this to me.

I lost "friendships" with all the gay men I have known. They are as sexist or moreso than straight men. The gay men I have known think us lesbians are a huge joke and that we're just playing at something.

[–]mangosplums 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Those are all really good ways of bringing up discussion about the problem, thanks!

[–]Destresse 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't know other lesbians well enough irl to talk about it either, and the state of the community isn't as bad as in the US here, but I did talk about what was going on to people I'm close with, because this madness is slowly crossing the Pacific. At first they just didn't understand what I was talking about (because it's so unreal they couldn't wrap their head around it, actually, haha) but once they understood, mostly they were surprised and grossed out. Told me there was no way our country would get brainwashed into that but I'm not so sure, personally...

With this widespread idea of transphobia, I'd advice you to choose your words carefully so your friends can't misunderstand you. But well, that might not change anything... For example, I've seen people on the internet admit that they misunderstood JK Rowling's tweets when it is... kind of impossible to misunderstand in my opinion lol, because of their bias and the fact they jumped on the hate bandwagon without thinking. It was really wild seeing them say they "read her wrong" when she said biological sex is real... 😮

[–]oofreesouloo 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Told me there was no way our country would get brainwashed into that but I'm not so sure, personally...

OMG, the few people I've talked to told me the exact same thing. In my country, things aren't bad yet BUT you can see already a CONSIDERABLE amount of ~queer~ people who are spreading that ideology. I'm so scared that they will get worse and the same level as UK or USA. On one hand, I don't think so as well. On the other, I've never thought in million years we were going to live this nightmare, BUT here we are! It sounds something UNREAL, especially in a time where things supposed to be so much liberal..........

[–]Destresse 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, same here. This ideology doesn't have much power and stays on the internet but I'm also scared it will get bigger and bigger. And at the same time, I don't think our government or culture would be okay with transing people left and right, but...

Someone told me it wouldn't happen here because the UK and US have historically been bad at caring for their marginalised population and that's not the case everywhere. While that's true, I think it's very easy for a country to become abusive towards its vulnerable people soooo... Let's say I'm prepared for the worst hah

[–]florasis 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, my country tend to be more conservative. But you know, USA leads the way. If something gets popular there, you can bet it will be popular in Europe

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

If you live in a metropolitan centre in the us or canada and you start terfing around everyone you know will publicly hate you or only talk to you in private, or be afraid to be seen talking to you at all, in any way, ever. Fuck those people.

But you can also lose your job, so be careful.

Edit: most of my gay friend group are pretty heavy TRA. the few transes, lesbians, bisexuals, gays and straights I know who share terven views only speak among ourselves. Yes, I am good friends with transes who hate all this shit and are scared

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, I am good friends with transes who hate all this shit and are scared

I've talked with a few trans people (online and anonymously only) who really hate a lot of the mainstream trans activism and its ideology - it makes sense because they really have the most to lose if people start turning on them.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People already are, it’s awful. A good example is Buck Angel, even he says he’s never been so hated in his entire life for his transition as he is now that TRAs have stirred the shit up. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy, all the transphobia. They have actually made it real

[–]carrotcake 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm curious as to what the trans people you mentioned hate about it. What is it specially?

I've heard that some trans people in the internet say that they do believe gender is a social construction that should be dismantled but they feel that in this life it's only possible to conform to it because is not going to change so soon. So what they do is present the way they feel most comfortable and try to be this gender but at the same time affirm that it is a social thing, different than sex.

[–]mangosplums 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m not the Op you asked the question to, but from what I can tell most real trans people have severe dysphoria and have had it since they were children, and have therefore taken hormones and/or surgery to deal with it, to them that is an essential part of being trans. These days you don’t even have to have dysphoria to ID as trans, or any desire to change your hormones or body, all you have to do is say you are trans and you must be believed, that’s the dogma. It’s undermining to people who are actually legitimately trans, who have suffered because of it and want to be respected and taken seriously.

[–]carrotcake 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh that makes sense! Thank you!

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[removed]

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I admire you. It is a hard thing to do, taking a stand like this. I am glad rad femmes reached out.

    [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

    Most of the lesbians I’ve met where I am seem to believe in lesbian separatist ideology. My views are quite tame in comparison to some of theirs. But I guess that’s when they moved to large acreage properties far off the beaten path.

    [–]julesburm1891 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

    I’m both fascinated and terrified by whatever is happening in your corner of the world.

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Well where do you want to start? There was Ruby Ridge, the dumb shits from the aryan nation HQ that finally left in 2001, the the 2019 movement to cut Washington at the cascades to make a new red state named “liberty”, or the backwoods insanity I see on a daily basis? A few lesbians living out in the middle on no where who think they should have their own place with nothing but lesbians and the men are not needed is actually seems quite sane compared to all that I guess.

    [–]julesburm1891 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Okay, you have made the Deep South sound sane, which is a feat.

    Oh, I saw the Louis Theroux episode where he visited Ruby Ridge. It seemed...crazy. But, I didn’t realize it had fallen apart.

    It really sounds like you’re living in the ultimate extremes of the American experience.

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    This place has changed a lot since I was a kid, thankfully. Most people that have been here forever hated the waves of new people moving up here, I welcomed it. The 2 major cities aren’t that bad but I live a few hours away in an unincorporated area of 2000 people spread out over a large area.

    [–]WildwoodFlower 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    My friends who are lesbians and gay men are older and married. I think a handful of the gay men are still somewhat involved at the local LGBT center. But for the most part, these folks are mainly into taking care of their kids/pets/homes/parents/jobs as well as each other. The organizations they belong to tend to be centered around the arts, music, faith/religion/spirituality, rescuing animals, and serving the larger community. For example, one of the gay men I know is very invested in helping people with addictions because this is something that has affected his own family. The subject of trans people never comes up, not even at Pride Day where they are everywhere. I don't think they have anything against trans people; they just don't move in the same circles. Maybe it's because TRAs are more into joining (and dominating) groups that are exclusively LGB, and not interest-focused organizations like community choirs and cat rescues that also include straight people?

    [–]queerone 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Nope for the reasons the others have stated. Also I'm a hermit and have no true lesbian friends IRL or otherwise. Bi gals are a different story.

    [–]Sapphicatalyst 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I'm honestly having a hard time getting a feel for how big or small the gender topic is because my straight friends have no idea what it is when I asked their opinion, and we live in Seattle, WA! It's probably because most people I know are busy raising families, running businesses, taking care of aging parents, pursuing hobbies, etc (we're in our 30's). I did find a local GC lesbian once. She said it was my "I only date natal women" and lack of preferred pronouns on my dating profile that caught her attention.