Short hair and homophobia

submitted by reluctant_commenter from self.Lesbians

All right, I feel ridiculous making this post but I bet people here will have some insights about it.

I grew up with a homophobic female relative who was particularly homophobic towards lesbians. Gay men: "Oh, they're so nice and fun! I have had so many friends who were gay men!" Lesbians: "They are mean and nasty and violent" (sorry if I stress anyone out by repeating these comments).

One of the things she would say about lesbians, though, in addition to all the name-calling and negative stereotypes, was-- she told me lesbians all have short hair. I, being a child, did not know many lesbians in popular culture and did not think to question it. In fact, as ridiculous as it sounds, I kind of thought I wasn't lesbian for years because I have never wanted short hair, AFAIK.

I realized that I was lesbian/homosexual a couple months ago, and I struggle a lot with comphet and internalized homophobia. I feel silly saying this, but: I have this.. fear..? this feeling that it is inevitable that I will get my hair cut short, now that I am a lesbian. Because of what my relative said. I also feel like I have a very negative connotation with having short hair, and I feel bad about that.

Right now my ideal hair length is shoulder-length. I really like how it looks like, like that. My family pressured me to have it very very long, when I was a child, but I know that I like this more now. I feel kind of worried that either a) I might actually want shorter hair and internalized homophobia is stopping me, and/or b) that I am "not allowed" to be a lesbian and not have short hair... I know that sounds absolutely ridiculous haha, sorry.

I guess I am wondering:

  1. Did any of you experience a lot of homophobia from other women growing up?

  2. Can anyone relate to having inner conflicts over hair, particular in context of homophobic comments like these?

  3. Any suggestions from those wiser?

I feel like this is so petty but I really have no one else to ask these questions to, lol. Thanks in advance.

edit: missed a word.

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[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Hair length has nothing to do with being a lesbian. Most women with fashion buzz cuts are straight as arrows. Your family member is a dumbass. “Comphet” isn’t the root cause of everything, and is unlikely to be making you not want to cut your hair. Lesbians don’t all have this sudden urge to chop their hair off. Cutting your hair short is an extreme change. It’s pretty normal to be fearful of the results, or even just not feel like doing it.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Isn't it a stereotype for straight women to cut their hair short after a bad breakup in order to start "fresh"?

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, makeover and eating ice cream etc. Dramatic changes. Losing weight at the same time as non-stop crying and stuffing your face, etc. Lol

[–]Fleursdumal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes! It's the breakup haircut

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

“Comphet” isn’t the root cause of everything, and is unlikely to be making you not want to cut your hair.

Whoa, I didn't say that. :) Maybe I am mixing up the term with internalized homophobia, though. I don't think it is the root cause of all my problems; rather, I mentioned it for context. Sometimes these little details end up being common to multiple people's experiences, so I threw it in there in case it was relevant, as I try to make sense of this all.

Your family member is a dumbass.

I appreciate you saying that, haha. I grew up in an extremely controlling environment. Quite frankly, I feel afraid even posting on this group and describing myself as a lesbian. That family member would take it as a personal affront that I am doing so, if they knew. But, I know logically that is ridiculous, so I keep trying to do stuff like this even though I feel afraid.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I guess it is a pretty extreme change, that's true. It is not one that I am planning on making soon, but I've been thinking about all this recently, so I thought it might be good to talk about.

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It’s not gay to have short hair. It’s more to do with general misogyny to expect women to have specific hair like in Victorian England. Most gay women have all different hair lengths. It’s not homophobia it’s misogyny to tell women they don’t look “feminine” with short hair. Some people will say “dykes have short hair” but what they actually hate is gender-non-conforming women. Even if you dated men they would hate your short hair. It’s not internalized homophobia or comphet or any of that, it’s just expecting you to conform to expectations for ALL WOMEN. When you’re also a lesbian it feels like it’s because of homophobia, but these dummies hate all women.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Wow. I have never thought about it that way. I guess I assumed it was homophobia because she would always say it was a lesbian thing. But now that I think about it-- it seems kind of like how when men call each other gay, it harms gay people but it's more about masculinity. Her saying that's a lesbian thing is actually more about femininity.

See, and all this blows my mind because she thinks she is super progressive and liberal, lol. She also considers herself to be "an expert on womanhood". I didn't really enjoy listen to her talking about womanhood growing up, it made me uncomfortable, so I just assumed I was not interested in thinking about it.

She does really hate women. I remember hearing her say stuff that was negative about woman growing up, like, "Women are so catty. Women are so nasty to each other, they're so gossipy," all this stuff. It is really quite bewildering, now I think about it, especially because she is a woman herself, lol-- like, why do you not have more compassion for your own group? I guess I have some serious reading to do regarding misogyny, you've given me a lot to think about. Thanks for clarifying that!

edit: I wonder, too, if she just assumed that gay women only have short hair because if she saw a woman with longer hair, she automatically assumed they were straight. I would guess that's the case with her.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

YES, that is EXACTLY what I mean, you got it perfectly. Even insults for men are all things that feminize him, like “pussy.” They see gender non-conforming men as less “male” and therefore as “female” or “gay.”

I am sure she makes loads of internalized misogyny statements like that. There are a lot of women in the gender critical community, even, who are extremely misogynistic but think themselves warriors for women when they themselves are like poster girls for gender-conforming lives and behaviour and would probably throw lesbians under the bus without hesitation. Just because people like to feel progressive doesn’t mean they are. Calling all women catty etc is just her hating women

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

There are a lot of women in the gender critical community, even, who are extremely misogynistic but think themselves warriors for women

Omg, I've thought I have seen this before too!! I couldn't really wrap my brain around it-- the misogyny of some comments in GC communities-- so I just figured I wasn't gender critical. But, that makes me wonder.

Just because people like to feel progressive doesn’t mean they are.

Yup, I know that to be true but I never even considered how it would apply to this context. Wow. People really are un-genuine sometimes.

Calling all women catty etc is just her hating women

Yeah... Yeah, and I think I'm going to need to re-train my brain on this one. She always had such an air of being wise, when she said stuff like this. Bashing women. I look at that from this angle and say, That just seems narcissistic. For her to think she is worldly-wise for insulting people. Wtf.

I know this stuff probably sounds super obvious to you but I have learned many things from this thread tonight, from you and other people.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It’s not super obvious. It takes a while to see how people we respect are still supporting crappy ideas because they don’t really know any better. Lots of women are totally complicit in harming other women (as a whole), even if they are mostly good people. She probably IS wise in many ways, just not so much when it comes to gender stuff.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

She probably IS wise in many ways, just not so much when it comes to gender stuff.

Unfortunately, she is not. She is a narcissistic and sadistic person. I am trying to undo years of brainwashing that she has done to me. But-- I have never before considered how misogynistic she might be, with everything else going on. Tbh, if this is not obvious and slipped under my radar, I kind of wonder what else that she convinced me of is entirely ridiculous. It's a process to figure out.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh man! I relate. My mom told me I couldn’t possibly be a lesbian because I don’t look “like a MAN like dykes do,” when I was young. I know there are probably some dumb ideas rolling around in my head that are complete bullshit. Lol.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ugh, I'm so sorry you've had to deal with this bullshit too. But hey, thanks for knocking a couple of those completely-bullshit ideas out of my head. :)

[–][deleted]  (6 children)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Exactly. ANYTHING GNC. Let’s call it what it really is, misogyny, and it’s keeping straight women and bi women down too. Even gay men! Men are punished for being too femme and women are punished for being too unfemme. Even if you dated men they would give you the third degree for being gnc.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]CJLez 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      My boss at work has daughters that are turning teenaged and she's trying to raise them with her 'last human alive' theory which is... if everyone else in the world dissappeared and you could have whatever hobbies you wanted and listen to whatever music/shows you wanted and dress however you wanted... that's how you should behave now because that's what makes you happy inside.

      It's really sweet, I think it would be a nicer world if everyone was raised like that.

      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      They would likely participate in more of life and be less likely to avoid wearing swimsuits, etc and doing things that they might not look “attractive”enough doing. The world would change for the better for women with less rigid expectations on looks and behaviour fitting a feminine ideal. Same goes for men and masculine ideals. Lots of women have restricted their own lives a huge amount in ways directly related to expectations around gendered looks and behaviour. It’s actually really sad. My mom is pretty gnc and also a huge fucking hypocrite about it, but I guess we will just have to be better than our parents in this regard.

      [–]reluctant_commenter[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      I'm so sorry your mom was so abusive to you over GNC stuff, that's messed up. Yup, your older sister sounds very similar. I am really sorry you had to deal with that from her. It really impacted me to hear it from my relative, I think. I think that kind of obsession with gay men is kind of creepy, too. My relative spoke more "positively" about gay men, but I don't think it was necessarily any better if she had been negative towards both, what with the creepiness factor. Thanks for sharing your experience!

      Holy shit. I looked it up a little and that does sound relatable. Would you mind if I messaged you and asked a little more about it? If not, that's totally okay, I can read about it on my own. :)

      [–]CJLez 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      I've historically always had long, thick, curly, frizzy fast-growing hair to the point where I'd get charged extra at the hair dressers because it was so thick. I always wondered what I'd look like with short hair but I was scared it would out me as a lesbian so I kept it long.

      I came out last October (as a 33rd birthday present to myself so I really sympathise with the whole internalised homophobia thing you've got going on) and, when lockdown happened in March I decided to chop it all off. I figured that, if I hated it, it would grow back by the time lockdown ended so no-harm-no-foul.

      I love having short hair. It feels like it fits me more than long hair did. I'm not married to it though and if, in the future, I want to have long hair again, I'll grow it out. My mum despises it. She's fine with me being gay but it seems she was only fine when I was in the closet and didn't tell anyone or want to actually date women and she said a lot of very hateful things about what she assumes butches are recently.

      When I went to the LGBT and WLW meetup groups in my city the vast majority of women, esspecially under 40, had long or medium length hair. All of the couples I met there were either butch/butch or femme/femme. My co-worker is marrying a woman and both of them have long hair. You'll still be considered a lesbian if your hair is long.

      If you do want to have it shorter you could do something chin-length or practice pinning it back to see how you'd look but if you like it long you don't ever need to have it short just to prove something to other people.

      [–]carrotcake 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      When i was a teenager and realized i liked women, i stopped wearing skirts. It wasn't something that felt super great, liberating. It wasn't like "oh man finally i can stop wearing skirts because i know who i am and I don't owe anything to anyone". It was a little bit of this conflicting feeling that you're describing. With time i realized that I didn't want to stop. Take your time. Maybe you'll cut your hair and realize it isn't your thing. Maybe it is. Or maybe you won't have to do it to know that you don't want to.

      I feel like things like this come and go, though. Years after that, I'm dating a woman who struggles a lot with feminity and some of her struggles are starting to get to me. I've cut my hair really short recently, and she has kind of stated that she prefers it this way because she's gender critical. I don't agree with this statement at all for numerous reasons. But it kind of got to me and I'm once again a little bit bothered by expressing myself independently of masculinity/femininity ideals.

      From what i can grasp, it isn't just a hair thing, and it's normal for lesbians to go through phases that they are confused of how they should express themselves and navigate those stereotypes. Especially for people that just found out about their sexuality, I've heard that it is a common experience. Don't worry too much about it. Since it is the second time that I'm experiencing this feeling, i can tell you that it gets easier.

      [–]PasLagardere 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      I still remember my mom's reaction to me coming out to her: 'You can't be a lesbian, you have long hair.' For a long time she also had the idea that lesbian relationships consisted of 1 woman having short hair (the man) and one with long hair (the woman).

      Funny enough my whole childhood I was forced to have short hair by my parents. I had curls and they didn't and they really didn't understand how to handle curls so: cut it off. Ever since I'm 18 my hair has never been shorter than the middle of my back.

      Homophobia from other women: I often hear the same remarks, gay men are 'fun and cute and always so kind', lesbians are seen as 'rough, dramatic, very 'manly' and 'ugly'.

      [–]oofreesouloo 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      1) I wouldn't say a lot, but a considerable amount. There are plenty of women who are lesbophobic, the difference is that men tend to be more vocal and/or aggressive. I've met some women who were clearly homophobic and they made it known that lesbians were kind of repugnante or disgusting. However, from my experience, most women are much more discreet than men. So, they can say they have nothing against homosexuals, but their actions say otherwise. I've lost female friends because of this. They would say how it was perfectly okay to be gay, but then feel clearly uncomfortable around me, and sometimes would make homophobic remarks (not always directed towards me, but to gay people they saw) and I could see they were the type that "you can be gay AS LONG AS you're quiet about it". The good thing about women in comparison to men is that women seem to be more open to listen to different opinions/experiences and change their views on homosexual people than men. So, I've also seen some lesbophobic (and homophobic in general) women turn into very accepting of LGB(T) people. I haven't seen the same happen to men (but I'm hardly ever with men anyway so I'm not sure).

      2) Not especifically with the hair. But at first, when I realised I was a lesbian, lots of questions came into mind such as: "Do I have to be masculine?", "Am I supposed to cut my hair?", "In a lesbian couple, is it supposed for one to be 'more masculine' and another 'more feminine'? I didn't know anyone homosexual at the time, so I was still unpackaging this pre conceived ideas and getting to learn what ""type"" of lesbian am I, in all senses. I can relate to a lot of feelings and fears you're feeling as well (I had them too while I was discovering myself).

      3) In my opinion, you will never win as a lesbian. If you're a butch lesbian, I would say you're more prone to homophobia and more 'aggressive' attacks and/or comments. You might be more easily seen as an 'ugly disgusting dyke'. But as a femme lesbian, you'll also have to face other struggles, in particular, the lesbian erasure. If you're a femme lesbian, be prepared for almost everyone not taking you seriously and everyone be expecting you like men next month/next year/etc etc. Your lesbianism is treated like a phase by most people. And you're also more prone to being sexualized and objectified by men.

      In short, I would advise you to not think too much about the stereotypes and what 'lesbian' is supposed to mean. If you like long hair, use long hair. If you like short hair, use short hair. Dress however you like. Do the things you enjoy to do. The only requirement to being a lesbian is exclusively liking other women. All the rest is simply stereotypes.

      [–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      The only requirement to being a lesbian is exclusively liking other women. All the rest is simply stereotypes.

      I feel like this gets forgotten too often, especially in the "discourse" I see on Tumblr.

      Thanks for sharing all your thoughts, I appreciate it :)

      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      It sucks that you were told all of these horrible things growing up, and as a femme I have to say that short hair is super cute on women lol.

      But seriously, I do deal with internalized homophobia when it comes to things that are a bit irrational due to how I was raised. For example, I still feel somewhat uncomfortable thinking of myself as gay/lesbian, but I'm completely fine with thinking of myself as a homosexual. I guess its because the word "homosexual" wasn't used around me as a kid, and that words like gay or lesbian have a more familiar negative connotation for me. I think it somewhat important to mention, that I grew up in a home where English was the second language and I was raised religious, just not Christian. To me the word "homosexual" sounds clinical and meanings other than "one who is solely attracted to the same sex" are harder to come by. It was also the first word I found (before lesbian/gay) that accurately described my own experiences for me, so I grew somewhat fond of it.

      Hmm..as far advice goes I think surrounding yourself with positive lesbian media (even if that's a bit difficult) might be a good way to go. If you have instagram, maybe you should just start subbing to random lesbian pages (esp. if the women have short hair) so you can see a happy reflection of sexuality daily.

      [–]reluctant_commenter[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      Thanks, I appreciate the support. I really relate about "homosexual" not feeling as bad as "gay/lesbian"; it's interesting that it has a clinical connotation, whereas "bisexual" does not at all and is a regularly-used word.

      I think that's a good suggestion! I don't have an instagram, do you think it might be worth it to make one for lurking on pages? I don't want to post anything. Do you have any suggestions for specific instagram pages to look at?

      I watched "Imagine Me & You" for the first time last week and really enjoyed it. I am trying to slowly dip my toes into more forms of media with lesbian/gay content.

      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      I think the clinical connotation comes from people thinking that homosexuality is a mental illness.

      I deleted my insta a while back, but I do remember that @gaygirls_inlove showcased pictures of happy lesbian couples. Also @lesbianrepresentation and @butchisnotadirtyword are both good places to start. I was also subbing to random lesbian/lesbian couple pages as well.

      [–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I think the clinical connotation comes from people thinking that homosexuality is a mental illness.

      You're absolutely right. I wonder if "bisexual", as a word, was maybe able to evade that outcome because it only began to be often discussed in more recent times when there was more acceptance of gay rights.

      Thank you for the suggestions!! I will take a look. :)

      [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      i had a friend whose mom was like this & begged her not to cut it even into adulthood, which was always so bizarre to me because tons of women have short hair, esp. when they become pregnant & don't wanna fuss with it. at least in the northern US, may be different where you are. if you feel like you wanna explore shorter styles take it up a couple inches, it'll grow back. if anyone questions it just say you wanted something easier to wash/manage. but you definitely don't have to! i grow mine out as long as possible, i've tried it short & it wasn't for me. experimenting is the only way you'll know for sure (maybe a haircut testing app could help?) but don't stress yourself out about it. be kind to yourself & the internalized homophobia will go away with time. try to focus on your own happiness and what feels good & right to you rather than whether or not you're fitting a stereotype.

      [–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Yup, that's exactly my relative(s). In fact when I was a child they would all make a huge deal about my hair, and force me to wear certain hairstyles to please other female relatives. Now that I look back on it, it seems kind of weird..

      That's a good idea-- doing a couple inches at a time. Lol. I don't know why I thought I would have to chop it all off to find out. That's a good answer to give for it, too. Thanks for the suggestions!!

      I did not realize there were haircut testing apps, I will check that out. I live under a rock, hahaha. I struggle with being kind to myself but I will try my best to take your words to heart. Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)

      [–]MyLongestJourney 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

      I have this.. fear..? this feeling that it is inevitable that I will get my hair cut short, now that I am a lesbian. Because of what my relative said. I also feel like I have a very negative connotation with having short hair, and I feel bad about that.

      You are 100% right.As soon as you realize you are a lesbian,an irresistible urge to cut your hair short,stop shaving your armpits,setting fire to your make up kits and wearing black combat boots takes over your brain.

      [–]reluctant_commenter[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Hahahaha I knew it!

      For real though: I really want combat boots, lol. It's on the bucket list.

      [–]Fleursdumal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Often when women come out as lesbian they will have a phase where they cut their hair and dress really masculine because they finally feel they're allowed to be GNC or they want others to know they're lesbians. There is no way to look lesbian though. Homosexuality is extremely random so you have people from all walks of life that end up gay. Since we're outsiders I think it makes it easier for us to be GNC but I think there are just as many masculine straight women as there are masculine lesbians. My city is very liberal and there's plenty of masc straight women.