let's retire the tomboy stereotype

submitted by fckme from self.Lesbians

Hit and miss if she turns out lesbian or not.

I have 2 friends who are stRAIAAAAAAGHT af but are so very gay on paper. button downs, birkenstocks or vans, no shave, no bra. Flannel. Buzzed hair., vegan,. Sitting next to the chair rather than on it.

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[–][deleted] 24 insightful - 7 fun24 insightful - 6 fun25 insightful - 7 fun -  (20 children)

It stresses me out that lesbian became a mainstream fashion look. I wish we could just have our “ugly dyke” fashion back (but not the socks with sandals).

[–]Jaded 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

I would argue that tomboys were only mainstream from very late 80s to early 00s. Present day fashion is too busy reclaiming sexually provocative clothing as "empowering" and "feminist"

EDIT: Oops I think I misread your comment. If you're saying that you dislike the intentional appearance of lesbianism or "queerness" through fashion then yes I agree. Although I get blisters easily so I will continue to wear socks with sandals

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, but “queer” girls that legit never date women still dress like dykes a lot

[–]Jaded 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I hate girls like that. It just makes hets take us even less seriously than they already do

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, and get my hopes up that there are more lesbians

[–]writerlylesbian 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

I feel like the 'performative queers' for want of a better phrase still are frequently a bit 'off'...Like, their body language is often really...submissive, for want of a better way of putting it. Lots of deference, lots of apologies and qualifiers in how they speak, not acting comfortable in their own skins. And then a lot of them go on about dating men, so that's a bit of a giveaway (but some of them inexplicably still insist they're lesbians. Come across a few like that. What even is this timeline?)

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

Maybe they should “perform” having a spine until they find one

Our generation couldn’t get away with that type of weak shit

[–]writerlylesbian 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Oh I know. The trial be fire stuff certainly separates the homos from the posers! They're there crying over not being 'centred' in every discussion and I'm like...Yeah, when we were your age, my friends and I were fighting actual gay bashers in the street. Just grow the fuck up.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I was literally fighting gaybashers, especially in defence of wee gay men. These ppl have no idea

[–]writerlylesbian 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The town where I came out was mostly working class, and pretty tough. There was one mixed GL gay bar, in the bad part of town. Or maybe worse part of town, since the whole place was kind of the bad part of town, lol. Going into that gay bar usually involved negotiating drunk men, sometimes quite a lot of them, all deliberately loitering around outside jeering and throwing projectiles like beer bottles etc. Sometimes looking for anyone who they thought they could pick off and take away for a good beating/raping/who knows what else.

Like...In those days we really had to look out for each other and defend each other. From actual physical harm. And now pronouns kill people.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I had to threaten the COPS to make them stop gay bashing my gay male friends. Those same cops said I was “cute” and they would “do” me. If we didn’t stick together the gay men would have gotten beaten, easily.

When the TRAs say words are literally violence and they are being killed and erased and don’t exist because of TERFS, it’s a piss-off for me.

Sounds like your town was worse than mine, though it was also working class.

[–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I know. The trial be fire stuff certainly separates the homos from the posers!

I don't want to minimize what you and other members of the older generation have gone through. But, is that really how it should be? You could say that the younger generation of lesbians/queer people have the "luxury" of being able to be insecure about their sexual orientation and work through their self-doubt. But, if they never had the chance to do that, then I bet a bunch of them might have ended up living their whole lives as "straight" when they are not actually straight, out of fear. Maybe most have not faced actual violence (though I think violent homophobia is still surprisingly prevalent-- I have an IRL lesbian friend who was threatened with a shotgun over being gay, for example). But, who's to say who's a poser and who's not? I feel like we should be allowed to have room to be insecure like straight people do.

They're there crying over not being 'centred' in every discussion

This bothers me a lot, too. I agree that there is often a lack of perspective in these sorts of conversations.

[–]writerlylesbian 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yes, absolutely the next generation should have it easier. Fighting for legal rights as well as cultural acceptance was the point of the movement. And in a lot of ways, I don't think the young LGB, especially the young L's, do have an easier or better time, which sucks. There's still the old conservative homophobia in many places, as well as the progressive new homophobia that is destroying the movement from within and completely changing the message from self-acceptance as a same-sex attracted person, to you're wrong and you must change in some way (presentation/identity/preferences etc).

The type of 'posers' I was talking about are those like Fox and Own Fisher, heterosexuals who have an edgy fashion sense and odd identities and think that gives them the right to come in and start presiding over the gay movement and telling us what to do. Not young gay people who are still coming to terms with themselves. The truth is, if things ever did go pear-shaped with gay rights, all those trendy straight hangers-on would not be able to distance themselves fast enough and blend right back into the dominant culture. And they are often the loudest voices who are complaining that same-sex people expressing their attraction is bigoted violence etc.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks for clarifying, I really appreciate it. I agree, it does seem like there is homophobia coming from both sides now, as opposed to in the past where essentially all of it originated from conservatives. I don't want to devalue the stuff going on before, I admire the bravery of people (like you and others in this thread, for example) who stood up for who they were. Just, I worry if we look down on the younger generation because they went through less physical violence, then they might stay in the closet longer, feel more shame, etc. I have seen a few people my age start a "my trauma is worse than YOUR trauma" game, similar to "trans discrimination is WAY worse than gay discrimination", so I am very sensitive about that sort of thing.

I looked up Fox and Owl-- it's pretty crazy, they actually think nonbinary people are a very large percentage of the population. Like, a guy on a British talk show was like "99.9% of people are happy with their gender assigned at birth" and Fox was like "But I saw a statistic recently saying 12% of the population is LGBT!" Which is probably an accurate number of LGBT but LGBT != trans, lol.

[–]writerlylesbian 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Interestingly, back in the 90s and early 2000s, the LGB movement (as it was back then) used to claim that about 10% of the population was LGB. No one was really collecting those statistics back then, so they basically just guessed, and made the number 10% because having a bigger number was better from the perspective of political lobbying.

Actually, once more accurate statistics began to be collected via surveys or other methods, the numbers that emerged were more like 5% for gay men and 1-2% for lesbians. Not sure about the B's. Those numbers are not necessarily completely accurate, of course, because people might not want to identify themselves or whatever, but it's still rather smaller than the 10% that was originally claimed.

So if there ARE 12% of the population who are trans/non-binary, then they greatly outnumber the LGB population, and one wonders where they have all come from so suddenly, when there has never been evidence for such a population before. (Appropriating GNC same-sex attracted people from history doesn't count).

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Actually, it turns out the 10% ballpark may have been pretty close! Even though it was derived from Kinsey's work (which was a little scientifically questionable): https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/05/10-per-cent-population-gay-alfred-kinsey-statistics

This 2018 Gallup survey found that 8-9% of millenials identify as LGBT. The overall population estimate was 4.5%, but that's being weighed down by very low rates of identification in the oldest generations. I would bet that's a major underestimation, even among millenials. https://news.gallup.com/poll/234863/estimate-lgbt-population-rises.aspx

But that doesn't mean they're all nonbinary or even trans, lol. It's still a ridiculous conflation of groups.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

YES IVE NOTICED THIS TOO

[–]hufflepuff-poet 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

The socks with sandals are my favorite part though! Birks with fun socks are a fashion must for me lol

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo. Don’t be THAT DYKE.

Hahaha

[–]Jaded 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think it's not a particularly useful concept for lesbians, however with the increase in gender politics and the insistence that clothing=sex, I think tomboys are increasingly important in feminist discourse and for fighting against gender essentialism.

So yes, I agree that we should not promote the idea that tomboy=lesbian any more than tomboy=secretly wants to transition. However we can still acknowledge that lesbians are more likely to be gender nonconforming since we are less invested in performative femininity.

[–]yayblueberries 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

we are less invested in performative femininity

This is a huuuuuge part of it. I'm not trying to look like a man, and I'm not a butch lesbian, but I sure as hell don't need to perform femininity for any man, so I am wearing jeans and t-shirts because the lesbians I have known don't expect their women to wear what men like. So I wear what I'm comfortable in. And it just so happens to make me look tomboyish. (But I look way better with long hair so I keep it long.)

I think it's not such much the idea that tomboy=lesbian that's the problem as so much that the hetero world right now is consumed with making sure their women look like Kardashians. It seems like hetero women are not at all ALLOWED to be tomboys. If you want to go work out outside it's like form fitting clothing to show off your ass is almost prescribed. And it seems like you are considered trash if you go to a store underdressed.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I completely agree with your take.

I don't have any ill-will towards straight women who dress like tomboys. It makes sense to me to dress that way lol, I'm glad they're able to enjoy it too! I think, also, that there is a heavy pressure for them to look a certain way. I was in a relationship with a guy before I realized I was gay, and it seemed like a major social status thing for a guy to be dating an "attractive" woman (I saw this firsthand and felt this pressure). I think a lot of this pressure for heterosexual women to dress up comes from the men who want social status points, which is disgusting... Just my 2cents.

[–]Dykexmachina 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Of course not all tomboys are gay. But, it's about percentages, patterns. The more tomboyish or gender nonconforming a girl is, especially when she's young, the more likely she is to be gay or bi. There are studies that prove this lmao, and there's a reason super tomboyish girls get picked on and called homophobic names by peers. Doesn't mean they're all gay, it's just more likely.

I was the stereotype tomboy as a kid. Most lesbians I've known were boyish as kids, a few weren't, which is just as ~valid~ haha and of course no one should question your lesbian credentials just cause you're feminine.

But so far I've never been wrong in assuming that a very tomboyish/gender nonconforming woman is a lesbian or at least bi.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I have a straight friend like that. Yes not all tomboys are lesbians but it’s more likely for a tomboy to be a lesbian than not to be one.

[–]tacticaldyke 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Agreed, besides, what’s the harm? A couple straight girls maybe get hit on by women? The odds still seem to be in my favor that if she’s rugged and outdoorsy, has hair on her legs and sports a snapback then she’s probably a lesbian. I may be a little heartbroken if I meet such a woman and she’s straight, but hasn’t happened yet and I’m fine with taking the chance.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly that, honestly. Like it’s like the whole not every girl who’s into sports is gay ordeal too, but damn you’re chances are higher if you talk to girl’s who are into sports. It’s the same thing with tomboys!

[–]Dykexmachina 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly, it's about it being more likely, statistically speaking.

[–]VioletRemi 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I know a lot of tomboyish or even butch women, who are straight and never were into women at all. It was what we were fighting for as feminists decades ago, so women can look whatever they feel comfortable or whatever they like.

And nowadays "tomboyish = lesbian" is appearing only because of corrosive politics of non-binary/queer/gender theoretics and activists. Do not fall into that trap, do not follow stereotypes created by men.

If your friends are considering themsevels as women and not as "non-binary", I am pretty happy for that situation, even if they are acting like that only because it is mainstream fashion. More women looking non-stereotypically and calling themselves women and not "non-binary" - the better for everyone of us.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Most tomboys I've met have been straight but I think that's just because straight women are the majority.

Fashion choices won't take away your lesbian card. But anecdotally speaking it feels like lesbians are generally more comfortable dressing however they want whether they're GNC or not.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hmm...I am a young femme and the only reason why I like that stereotype is because I think tomboys/butch lesbians are really cute. However, I do see a lot more femme lesbians online than butch ones, so I guess I might need to work on changing my preferences.

[–]Dykexmachina 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You don't have to change your preferences for anyone lol, there are still plenty of butch women around. But I have noticed less and less of us over the years, probably because at least half of butches these days are identifying as trans or nonbinary.

Luckily I'm usually into feminine women anyway, lol.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, you're right :)

[–]midnight305 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Sounds like hippies to me.