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[–]worm 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

As a non-American, I honestly don't see anything wrong with the American model. It seems to make much more sense to me from an intuitive standpoint that the sick must pay for their own healthcare.

Perhaps I am just misinformed, but if someone can give me a rundown on why the American system is so bad then I'd be willing to listen. Most of the time, all I seem to hear about is a complaint about how expensive everything is - but it seems quite intuitive to me that life-saving treatment ought to be expensive. Complaints about waiting-times, poor equipment, overworked doctors, or uncaring staff apply universally, regardless of whether you have a public healthcare system or not - so again, I don't see why the American system is somehow worse than others.

I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm just asking Americans to tell me exactly what they think is wrong with their system and how they want to fix it.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

  • We are forced to buy health insurance from a corporation which is unconstitutional
  • We pay the highest drug prices in the world by far, effectively subsidizing the whole worlds drugs

[–]worm 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Why are you forced to buy health insurance? Can't you simply say you'd prefer to be self-insured and pay for your treatment as needed?

Also, why are the drug prices inflated?

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Why are you forced to buy health insurance?

Obamacare enacted this bit and Trump did not repeal it. Nope you cannot refuse and do your own thing. So much for freedom eh?

Also, why are the drug prices inflated?

I don't have a proper detailed answer, but I think it's "always" been this way for Americans. Also they show us drug ads on TV like we are doctors and are qualified to make decisions based on their commercials.

[–]wizzwizz4 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Wait, seriously? You're paying not only for the drug manufacture, research, researchers and profit margin, but also the marketing budget?

[–]JasonCarswell 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not only that, there's more...

Now for the low low price of nothing and a little intentional mismanagement, you can watch society crumble and flounder as people suffer untreated. Sure you don't have to pay for universal healthcare for everyone, but in the end everyone pays anyway as their communities turn to shit, opiate addiction go viral, medical bankruptcies skyrocket, families are stressed, crime rises, and homelessness soars.

All for the low low price of not giving a fuck.

[–]wizzwizz4 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It seems to make much more sense to me from an intuitive standpoint that the sick must pay for their own healthcare.

Everyone needs healthcare. If they don't need it now, they'll need it later. Everyone gets ill. Everyone has accidents. Everybody needs an ambulance once in a while.

The last thing we want is people refusing treatment they need because they can't afford it. That's effectively systematically killing and maiming and poisoning poor people. Think of the children whose parents can't afford to pay to get their stomach pumped after they drank the contents of the cupboard-under-the-sink!

The amount of value you get from money is roughly proportional to the logarithm of how much money you have. If you're living hand-to-mouth with $50 in your bank account, then you'll appreciate $100 immensely. If, on the other hand, you're well-off and have $500 000 in your account, you'll probably not even notice the loss of $100.

If a rich person needs to pay $2 000 to fix their broken leg, they'll happily pay that; it's a one-off, and it's not that much money. They'd probably be happy to pay twice that! A poor person, on the other hand, would not even be able to afford the $600 trip in the ambulance. They'd just keep their leg as still as possible, and go into work the next day because otherwise they starve. (Numbers here are actually lower than most people would be paying.)

One solution to this problem is insurance, which is basically a fancy way of saying "pay us double the price of your medical expenses, but more spread out and somewhat shared between different people". This would be a fairly good solution to the "I don't want to get medical care because I can't afford it" except for two things:

  • If money's tight, you'll want to cut down on your expenses, and many people view medical insurance as an expense to be cut down on.
  • Even if you have insurance, if you make a claim on it there's something called a "premium" – basically, you have to pay even more more money if you take money out of the insurance pot. This means there's still an incentive not to get treatment.

(Also, ObamaCare did a thing; I'm not really sure of the details. Everyone seems to say something different about it, but never what it actually is.)

So, insurance isn't a good solution; it merely masks the problem. If only there was a better way? Some solution that meant that richer people (who'd miss the money less) paid more, and poorer people (who need the money more) paid less, and meant that everybody had to pay into the system so they would always, always, always be covered.

… Isn't that describing taxes? You have to pay them, and people pay an amount proportional to their income / expenditure (unless they're avoiding or evading them, but that's another story). Taxes would also mean that you wouldn't have to check insurance details or anything; everyone is covered, no matter what.

There are, of course, numerous problems with the tax system. That varies from country to country (and, from what I know about the US, from state to state). However, it's better than the insurance system you've got now.

Additional benefits of taxes for medical care (so-called Universal Healthcare, also known as EVIL SOCIALISM):

  • It removes the overhead of insurance companies, resulting in the total amount being paid by US citizens falling.
  • If state hospitals are established for this (instead of paying private hospitals from the money from taxes), there's a drastically reduced incentive for hospitals to have artificially high profit margins (if it's set up so the excess money doesn't go into the decision makers' pockets).
  • If it's coming out of a pot that's under the government's control, there's incentive for the government to push for lower profit margins for drugs companies – and even for the government to begin directly financing the development of vital but unpatentable medicines.

Your current system isn't working very well. Look at other countries; they must be doing something right! (scroll down to the last graph of the page or click on expando)

What are you going to do about it?

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

It seems to make much more sense to me from an intuitive standpoint that the sick must pay for their own healthcare.

That is a corporatist answer if I've ever read one.

Does your intuition also encourage you to rob from the poor, and give to the rich?

[–]IdleHands 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Straw man attack, low pyramid effort

[–]worm 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I see nothing whatsoever that's corporatist (whatever you think that means) about my question at all. Is it not natural that the user should pay for whatever he uses? To me, it seems self-evidently unjust to force an unaffiliated third party to pay for the user's use of any product, though I cannot explain why it should seem unjust. This stems from a fundamental intuition about right and wrong, a moral compass if you will, and has nothing whatsoever to do with corporatism as far as I can see. If you see a connection between morality and corporations, then I'd appreciate it if you'd point it out.

As to whether I support robbing from the poor to give to the rich - it depends on your definition of robbing, poor, and rich.

If you would argue that an employer inherently robs from his employees by taking the fruits of their labour, and you want to stop all employment - then yeah, I'd definitely stand in your way and "rob from the poor and give to the rich". Sorry, but I'd rather not have the entire job economy collapse around me.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Thanks for the corporatist encore.

[–]IdleHands 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

By default I'll side with the other guy, he has arguments that support his viewpoint while you have nothing.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm with you Tom, but I'm not with your answer's tone.

A good rebuttal and further details might earn that as a snappy conclusion. Without it, you just seem meh at best.

[–]worm 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

He uses that because he has no answers. Tom's been more or less "debating" in the same way again and again in every single thread he's been in thus far.

I like him though, he has a tremendous talent for making everyone else seem smarter by comparison.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It's not a good look for those of us who stand on his side of any issue.

Maybe /u/Tom_Bombadil is a shill? He sure calls some folks are shills a lot. That's a pretty good sign he's a shill.

Holy shit! Maybe I'm a shill now too! Fuck this is contagious. Maybe if I don't use the word anymore because it's stupid and divisive I can be cured.

If only he had just voted or not voted rather than offered unsubstantiated comments I wouldn't be contaminated by the shillingles contagion.

Why am I not arguing for his side? It's a very complex topic entangled in manipulative bullshit identity politics above all, and while I know we're correct, I don't have the time nor inclination to unpack all dogmas and go deep to win over just a few little hearts and minds when I have the world to save via my other projects.

Or maybe I'm fully chilled now...

[–]Tom_Bombadil 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, I know.

I was over it after the response, because I didn't want to engage in +8 rounds of debate against apparently canned responses, which read like they're copied off of some lawyers email.

It was a waste of time, so I bailed out.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

*failed out.

Won't you do it for the sick children?