Men's IssuesWho are the demographic of men who are into TIMs?

submitted by HelloMomo from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

In places and times that have specific cultural roles for hyper-feminine gay men (for example, the fa'afafine) so they could present themselves with many of the cultural trapping of women, but had no medical transition. Who did those guys date? Are their husbands GAMP-type bi men, or more typical bi or gay men?

That's a great question. I haven't read enough of the research literature to know. Do you use Google Scholar much? I suggest looking it up there. I have seen several papers referencing the fa'afafine.

One of the things about the whole trans thing that I find oddest is that it really does appear that some people do have a very strong seemingly innate and inborn preference for masculinity or femininity. And it dating, it seems like some people have a very strong preference for masculinity/femininity in others. And I'm just really perplexed by how someone could have such an innate reaction to something that is culturally constructed.

All right, I've got 2 different theories for ya.

Idea #1

Well... this is speculation, but I could see a way: through personality. There is evidence that genetics have a substantial contribution to personality among individuals. Sex-based cultural stereotypes about men and women attribute personality traits to each sex: e.g. "men are tough and aloof" or "women are warm and friendly." So, let's say Person A has a higher inclination for the personality trait of warmth. Suppose that people who are warm generally seek out other people who are warm. Then Person A ends up liking people who are "warmer" and because culture (some cultures, anyway...) dictate that women are "warm," the people that Person A ends up attracted to are more stereotypically feminine. And so Person A may say that they "are attracted to femininity," and more specifically:

  • If Person A is a lesbian woman, then she ends up attracted to women who are more stereotypically "feminine" in this way. (This is me :D )

  • If Person A is bisexual, then they might say "I am attracted to femininity regardless of sex" and date feminine men/women.

  • If Person A is a gay man, then he might have a preference for feminine gay men.

You could imagine how this might play out across a variety of personality traits and stereotypes. Again, just my idle speculation. It's a good question.

Idea #2

If sex stereotypes are absolute bullshit and have 0 basis in objective reality, then we would still see variation among people in regards to which stereotypes they are more attracted to-- purely by random chance. In this case, when we see someone who "is attracted only to femininity" or "is attracted to masculine women and feminine men" or whatever combination, it's just statistical noise. (I don't know that this is the best answer but it is one possible answer.)

Does that make sense? My brain is a little fried right now, but it's a good question and I wanted to take a stab at it.

[–]HelloMomo[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes, there are personality traits that are considered feminine or masculine. But (at least in my experience) when people are talking about whether a person is generally feminine or masculine, aesthetics are weighted much more heavily than personality. So I'm a little skeptical of Idea #1.

But when I brought that up, I was kinda going off on a tangent. Preferences of masculinity/femininity in other was kinda secondary; I was moreso talking about preferences for masculinity/femininity in oneself. I personally experience both femininity and masculinity as largely random grab-bags of traits, I'm very pick-and-choose with both. For example: I like both sewing and woodworking. I think I'm interested in the both for the same reason: an interest in making stuff. I see these two interests as alike. But one's coded as masculine and one as feminine, and I see that as very arbitrary. I'm then perplexed by people who have an interest in wholesale masculinity or femininity. Like... do your own innate tastes really line up so closely with this random prepackaged collection? But to hear some butch women and very feminine gay men talk about their childhoods, it really looks like for some people, the answer is yes.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm then perplexed by people who have an interest in wholesale masculinity or femininity. Like... do your own innate tastes really line up so closely with this random prepackaged collection? But to hear some butch women and very feminine gay men talk about their childhoods, it really looks like for some people, the answer is yes.

That's a great question. I think there are people who are "all masculine" or "all feminine" because statistically speaking, it's incredibly likely that someone will, by chance alone, happen to like all the activities in a given list of activities. And then there are also people who probably feel pressure to seem "masculine" or "feminine" and adhere to those stereotypes out of some combination of pressure and beliefs about what a "normal" man/woman, or a "normal" gay man/woman, should do or be. (I've met people who identified as LGB who insisted that they were super gender non-conforming... but didn't seem to actually much enjoy the GNC activities they described liking. Some of them seemed to believe that a "real" gay person should be GNC, which is dumb.)

[–]HelloMomo[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

there are also people who probably feel pressure to seem "masculine" or "feminine" and adhere to those stereotypes out of some combination of pressure and beliefs about what a "normal" man/woman, or a "normal" gay man/woman,

People who make themselves into a caricature of gay stereotypes right after coming out is a thing.

But I feel like that's very different than the 6-year-old tomboys and femboys who will eventually grow up to be gay but don't yet know it. I've heard stories of people who's gender non-conformity preceded their first crush, so they certainly weren't trying to fit any stereotypes of homosexuality.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People who make themselves into a caricature of gay stereotypes right after coming out is a thing.

Exactly. That's what I was trying to say.

I've heard stories of people who's gender non-conformity preceded their first crush, so they certainly weren't trying to fit any stereotypes of homosexuality.

Yeah, mine did, or at least the first crush I had that I was aware of. I wouldn't say I adhere to every single masculine stereotype, but I do to a lot of them, I guess. Clothing style and hobbies especially. But then, I've had a couple people on here tell me that I seem more "feminine" in personality so maybe I'm less GNC than I think I am, lol.