DiscussionLesbians, are you afraid of each other?

submitted by PatsyStoneMaverique from self.LGBDropTheT

This is a question I've been wondering about for a long time, but was too polite too ask. No point holding my tongue now!

So, I know this is rude and will ruffle feathers. Just tell why I'm wrong if I'm wrong.

From what I've seen online and in real life, there seems to be a spectacular amount of bullying and cliquishness in the lesbian community. Lesbians seem prone to singling out a woman in a group and harassing her for perceived flaws. I have often wondered if this pattern is not largely responsible for the vitriolic biphobia (yeah I said biphobia! Suck it!) among lesbians.

Social status is not guaranteed among lesbians a lot of the time due to rampant bullying and harrassment, so lesbians go looking for outsiders to focus the harrassment on instead. Women who fear being cast out as witches go hunting for witches to cast out in their place.

The biphobes seem to usually be women who are in some way considered subpar to the "gold star" lesbian feminist ideal.

I would also like to add that I know "gold star " is meant as a self-deprecating joke. There certainly seem to be some people taking it seriously, though

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[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There's a level of distrust because so many people who aren't lesbians claim to be lesbians. Currently we have the straight men and the bi/straight women who claim to love girldick so much and try to shame lesbians for not liking it.

Before that it was mostly straight women who would claim to be lesbians for the sole purpose of getting attention from men.

And then there's the unicorn hunters who are just looking for lesbians for threesomes with men.

There's going to be a level of distrust in any community that has so many people infiltrating it.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, this is it.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a better, more succinct version of what I was trying to say.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

What biphobia? Not wanting to have a long term relationship with a bisexual woman isn't biphobia. Don't know if you get that, but bisexuals speaking like that do sound like pathetic entitled queers. If complaining like you're owned being dated is pathetic and abusive, doing it toward a very small group of people while being privileged having a big dating poll, it is immoral.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Biphobia as hatred of bisexual women. If you dehumanize, belittle, abuse, degrade, or devalue bisexual woman you are biphobic.

Also, feel free to explain to MyLongestJourney why the way she treated me on this thread isn't acceptable. I'll just keep asking every lesbian who comes by until someone talks to her.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

One of the most important things to learn to improve your mental health it is don't giving too much importance to what it is out of your control, including people thoughts about you. Also I don't see her being abusive and degrading of anyone.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You're wrong.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm not wrong that giving lots of power to what it is out of your control is unwise and only causing you grief. Also you been very emotional. Your question was quite strange and can be seen as provocation. Normal then to have sarcastic defensive answer by a lesbian after you have accused the category of being bad and scary lol I mean sure there are assholes, but the attack on the different or someone who doesn't fit the standard of a group it isnt surely a lesbian thing, but an human toxic behaviour, and minorities aren't free from toxic human inclinations. But it is aburd that you relly thought this was specifically lesbian thing and that lesbians would be afraid of others like them. The greek lady just gave you an answer a normal lesbian would ( that are men the ones by whom women in general are scared, not others women). Her sarcasm and bitter answer were just consequences of having a bisexual making negative generalization over her category. Normal reaction

[–]MyLongestJourney 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks Italian friend,you get it completely.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's not a normal reaction, it's an unreasonable reaction. She also kept it up after it was clear that I wasn't making a generalization and was sincerely asking the question. I also said the same in the OP, which she missed, but maybe she misread.

I also don't think if you, Elvira, made me angry and I proceeded to address you as "my dear lesbian" and make snappy remarks and ask you "satisfied, lesbian?" that you would think I was justified in speaking to you that way. You would think that I was deeply prejudiced and would 1. expect me to apologize and 2. expect other bisexuals to correct me for being so vicious to you.

She also thought it was acceptable to laugh at me being sexually assaulted, what's your excuse for that?

Tell her she's being overly emotional, tell her she's misunderstanding. I'm not being unreasonable demanding respectful treatment.

[–]MyLongestJourney 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What are you doing here really? In your previous posts you described this sub as dead and said it should be shut down.So,what gives?

[–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

This is a question I've been wondering about for a long time, but was too polite too ask. No point holding my tongue now!

I hope people here are still interested in sticking to the same general rules of civility. That being said, I don't think it's rude of you to ask a question like this. Especially in the context of that thread posted the other day.

I won't be able to respond more until later tonight, but I wanted to give a (relatively) quick answer to your question. Here is my experience, as a single (1) lesbian data point: I am not "afraid" of other lesbian women, as a demographic. I am, however, distrustful of women who self-identify as lesbian and who act in bad-faith. Some of them are actually lesbian, but many are not. In particular, women who claim to be lesbian and:

  • ...obsess over how much they "hate men" (extremist radfems playing pretend)

  • ...obsess over how "soft" they are and talk about "titties" or "girldicks" (autogynephilic men playing pretend)

  • ...obsess over how much they dislike bisexuals (edgelords who are actually lesbian, in some cases, but in many cases are also extremist radfems, following in the wake of their lord Lady and Savior Julie Bindel)

I know this probably isn't the answer you want to hear, but it's my honest opinion: I think that in non-TRA "lesbian" spaces, the voices of "political lesbians"-- that is, extremist radical feminists-- often drown out the voices of real lesbian women.

Are some lesbian women actually biphobic? Yes. I've never met any IRL. But I know they must exist, because I have a friend IRL who's a beautiful bisexual woman and when she started listing herself as "bisexual" on the dating apps, her matches with women suddenly halved. Why else would that happen?

But no, I'm not afraid of people in my own demographic. I'm heartbroken that it's so hard to find more of them that I can talk to and bond with, and I dearly value the ones who I've had the honor of talking to. <3

[–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I'll add, before I forget... this is not a new observation, but it seems to be often forgotten. There have been tensions within LGB communities and movements regarding bisexual/homosexual relations. It seems to be a kind of weakness in our collective armor. I ask myself: "If I were a trans activist who hates those evil, trans-hating people in the LGB movement, what's the best, most effective way I could divide them and make them doubt themselves?" By splitting up the letters, of course. I think the most effective ways to do this are:

  1. based on sex-- split up LB women and GB men.

  2. based on sexual orientation-- split up homosexuals and bisexuals.

So I have trouble discerning, sometimes, what tensions are organic and what tensions are... manufactured, for lack of a better word.

That doesn't reduce the harm caused by a biphobic or homophobic comment, to be clear. But I think that observation does have some important implications for how we might solve this problem in our communities.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Well said.

"If I were a trans activist who hates those evil, trans-hating people in the LGB movement, what's the best, most effective way I could divide them and make them doubt themselves?"

Of course, their first way of sowing discord and chaos is to make our terms meaningless to the wider world. That, combined with infiltration of our spaces while using now-meaningless terms, does indeed sow mistrust, because now there's a bandwagon effect of even more people misusing our terms for their own gain. It becomes impossible to know who is being real and who is a poser.

What infuriates me is when those who should know better then start smearing an entire group because of what the infiltrators are doing in our name. They receive, believe, and re-perpetrate the gaslighting of TRAs at our expense and essentially become TRA enablers, even while professing their own dislike of TRA tactics. At that point it's the pot calling the kettle black; they've bought the ruse.

Helping people to think critically, learn red flags, and check themselves would have to be part of any meaningful correction to this mess. Lazy thinking and naïveté are easily exploited.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Thanks :)

What infuriates me is when those who should know better then start smearing an entire group because of what the infiltrators are doing in our name. They receive, believe, and re-perpetrate the gaslighting of TRAs at our expense and essentially become TRA enablers, even while professing their own dislike of TRA tactics. At that point it's the pot calling the kettle black; they've bought the ruse.

Completely agree.

Helping people to think critically, learn red flags, and check themselves would have to be part of any meaningful correction to this mess. Lazy thinking and naïveté are easily exploited.

Yup. You know, u/soundsituation sent me some links a while back about tactics used to takeover online communities... I'll see if I can't find those, you'd probably find it interesting reading if you haven't seen that sort of material already.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, if you find anything, I would definitely like to see that. Would probably be helpful for all of us.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Conversation 1, about s/lesbians-- exact same pattern as with this sub: user who identifies as lesbian suddenly starts posting repeatedly about being a "gold star" and not liking bisexuals, fight starts, people leave, sub gets emptier, people get sadder and more lonely. u/soundsituation not sure if she's added back but I would be very curious to hear her input. In fact, I can't believe I missed this comment of hers about the situation-- clearly I absorbed part of her message and forgot about it!:

I don't think it's a drove of trolls. I think it's one person with tons of alts who strategically inflames the naturally existing pressure points in a group in the hopes of--my best guess--driving people away from that group. Tensions and differing opinions do exist in heterogeneous communities such as this one, and even among lesbians whose common denominator isn't a shared ideology after all, but just a bio-social reality.

There was another convo I had with her, I'll try to find it.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, I was reviewing her post history and noticed that. I asked about her on the list of people to invite / who requested access because of some consternation about trusting SaidIt admins, of which she is one. So if you have input to add that would be welcome. I didn't see anything concerning in her posts.

(Reading the rest of your reply before responding.)

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Saw that just a few minutes before you commented. I've had good interactions with her; even when I've expressed my frustrations she's been patient, thoughtful and polite. I haven't looked at her comment history thoroughly, but I've had that type of interaction with her over a period of months.

Also, not a perfect argument, but she is who told me about some of the questionable tactics used by people on Saidit, and I don't know why a troll would want to inform their targets of their strategies.

Oh, and here's another conversation I had with her 5 days before where she suggested that the same pattern is happening on Ovarit right now. Which-- remember we kept getting a bunch of posts about radfems? I feel a little stupid now for engaging with those threads; I think they were probably also used to inflame tensions s/lgbdropthet.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, not a perfect argument, but she is who told me about some of the questionable tactics used by people on Saidit, and I don't know why a troll would want to inform their targets of their strategies.

I agree, though apparently our mods have had misgivings about admins generally since Magnora recruited from the regular SaidIt user base. Given that they've mentioned admins can see everything on SaidIt, I'm not sure we will get a more detailed explanation or guidance. We'll see.

But I like what I see from her post history so I couldn't cite any visible reason to not approve her request to rejoin.

And yeah, I remember the radfem posts. Don't kick yourself; we were not thinking in saboteur terms when we engaged. It sucks to have to be more circumspect but it is preventative in the long run.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Could you, or any of the lesbians on this forum, please speak to MyLongestJourney and explain to her why the way she treated me on this thread is unacceptable.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Do you mean this response? I don't think she was being rude; she was just answering the question in the title, and also adding information about what she is afraid of.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

In that particularly comment string she addressed my In a derisive way repeatedly, which is dehumanizing. If I snarled "my dear lesbian" at you or sassed you and then asked "satisfied, lesbian?" you would feel belittled and dehumanized, yes?

The thing that has gotten me upset enough to drag other lesbians into this is that she asked for details about an assault and then was up her own ass feeling like a victim and mocked me over it. Evil.

Why does that need explaining? I want an apology from her, or at least for her to delete that comment. She's isn't a feminist or a "lover of women." I want to be treated with respect and compassion. I am also female.

[–]MyLongestJourney 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You are not getting any kind of apology,because you made an inflammatory post with the intent to sow discord in this community. Previously you described this sub as dead and expressed the wish it was shut down.If I were a mod you would get banned and topics which pit the members of the community against each other (gays vs lesbians,lesbians vs bisexuals and lesbian against lesbians) would be forbidden by the rules.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You don't owe anyone an apology. You are being totally reasonable.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It isn't biphobia not to want serious relationship with a bisexual. Phobia is irrational fear, while not wanting to date seriously someone wired for male craving is a legit reason to reject someone like anything else, and actually one of the most rational and not superficial to have. Said by someone who doesnt see bisexuality as dealbreaker, but can't stand this bs about lesbian wanting to date exclusively others lesbians being someone bad for doing so. Your friend with her gigantic dating poll is going to be fine.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Phobia is irrational fear

FYI, "Phobia" is a misnomer; in the context of homophobia/biphobia it simply means prejudiced against (just wanted to clarify in case you didn't know).

while not wanting to date seriously someone wired for male craving is a legit reason to reject someone like anything else, and actually one of the most rational and not superficial to have.

Look... I don't want to start another argument, so maybe this is a conversation better had in DMs, but honestly, that does seem like an irrational fear to me. I've tried to understand it the few times I've seen this topic come up, but I just don't. It makes no sense to me to rule out even a bi woman who is like a 5 on the Kinsey scale, who centers women in her life and who is only rarely attracted to men. I don't think that lesbian women who blanket refuse to date bisexuals are "bad people"! And they have the right to do whatever they want with their lives. But I do think that they are being a little irrational. My own experience/perspective is that I have no problems with dating a bi woman, but perhaps I'm missing some piece of insight here. If someone wants to share a different perspective, I'd be curious to hear about it because I'd really like to understand this.

Again, though, maybe this conversation would be better continued in DMs, if you don't mind explaining it to me, Elvira.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Phobia can be irrational aversion too, but not prejudice.

Kinsey 5 are almost in the lesbian camp, and would be a great preferance of mine in terms of trust. But is that real kinsey 5? A woman who is constantly homo leaning, or someone who is homo leaning just for few years and then go back to strong hetero attraction? Bicycle exists, especially in young adult. The phrase "homosexuality is a phase" can be true for bisexuals

It isn't irrational not to feel safe with a partner whose sexual nature isn't stable. Real homo leaning bisexuals in stable way for life, are as rare as homo, theyre mostly hetero leaning or half and half.

It isn't irrational not to want a long term relationship with someone wired for opposite sex craving. Relationships can always end and feelings can change, but this is even way more likely when you're partner sexuality is only partially satisfied, and their nature has a strong craving for your opposite sex.

The whole dating thing is irrational, based on irrational feels, and often very shallow, homosexuals wishing for partner of equal nature it is one of the most rational wish based on objective factors for the security of bond and peace of mind

It doesn't matter how much you like someone, if you wish for a relationship likely to last decades or until old age, investing yoyr emotions and making yourself vulnerable to immense pain, you must to look for long term perspective, and many women will be very poor long term perspectives, in many cases, for their sexual wiring, and recognizing it, it is the opposite of irrational. An irrational person would just staying with someone cause they're beautiful you have all these dopamine fueled feelings for her. That would be irrational.

And I repeat, I find it absurd to portrait bisexuals, who have tons of choices, as victims, because of the legitimate desires of some homos to date long term people of their nature and calling them irrational. First, because as said it isn't irrational, and even if it were (and it isn't at all), the whole attraction thing it is irrational, so doesn't make any sense to see irrationality as a bad thing in this matter. And second, because homosexuals are extremely at disadvantage because of their numbers, so questioning the dating choices, done to increase the chances of long term success and preserve themselves from mental pain, it it is even more unfair (as it is already unfair to question people private choice of dating in general, but even worst in this case). It isn't acceptable to call people phobic for their legimate dating choices. So conclusion: only phobic is mistreating people, not, not wanting to have long term monogamous relationship with them.

[–]MyLongestJourney 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Very well said. The fear is not irrational,the concerns are real,if you want a long term relationship. I would also add the following :

1.the issue of STDs,as women who have sex with men have a way higher chance to get one than women who have sex exclusively with other women.

2.The heterosexual couples who use the woman as a bait to lure women in a threesome. Went to a couple of dates with bisexual women,only to end up in this previously undisclosed prospect.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When I first commented on this thread, I didn't realize that OP was trying to stir up trouble, but I see that now and I don't want to fan the flames, so I'm going to stop responding to the thread now. That said, I just replied to Elvira elaborating on my thoughts, if you're curious. I totally get why many lesbian women are hesitant to date bisexual-identified women for practical reasons like the ones you just described.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A woman who is constantly homo leaning, or someone who is homo leaning just for few years and then go back to strong hetero attraction?

No, I am talking about a bisexual woman who has a stable pattern of attractions: she is attracted to many women consistently and regularly, but her "type" in men is so rare that she is almost never attracted to any of the men around her. Sorry, I should've clarified this better.

The phrase "homosexuality is a phase" can be true for bisexuals

No that's not true. Those people are still bisexuals. They're just very same sex leaning bisexuals, is all.

but this is even way more likely when you're partner sexuality is only partially satisfied, and their nature has a strong craving for your opposite sex.

That's only true for some bisexuals, though. Some of them say they don't need both sexes and can be fully satisfied by having a monogamous relationship with just one partner, regardless of sex. I totally agree with you, though; I don't think I'd want to date someone who would be only "partially satisfied" dating just one sex!

and many women will be very poor long term perspectives, in many cases, for their sexual wiring, and recognizing it, it is the opposite of irrational. An irrational person would just staying with someone cause they're beautiful you have all these dopamine fueled feelings for her. That would be irrational.

I agree, of course. But it is irrational-- or rather, unrealistic, would be a better word-- to assume that all bisexual women fall into this category just because they're bisexual.

I think we agree on most substantive points: sexual attraction is not based on rationality, it just is there or it isn't. No one is "phobic" for not being attracted to someone.

However, the assumption that bisexual women "need partners of both sexes in order to be satisfied" is an uninformed stereotype about bisexual women that is only sometimes true. That stereotype is what I'm calling biphobic. I don't think lesbian women with that stereotype are "bad people" or something; maybe they just misunderstand what bisexuality is? But it is still a stereotype.

On the other hand, I do understand the argument that some lesbian women just want to have a partner who shares their experience as exactly as possible. That's like if I insisted only on dating people from my hometown who went to my high school and were in the same religion as me growing up and shared my experience exactly in a number of other ways. I don't think they are biphobic, but I do think they're limiting their dating pool unnecessarily, and I would regard that as a red flag, too, even though it's not biphobic.

I guess I've answered my own question with that previous paragraph. It sounds like we might still disagree on a few points, but I'll leave it at that. Thanks for talking with me, Elvira, I appreciate it.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

when she started listing herself as "bisexual" on the dating apps, her matches with women suddenly halved. Why else would that happen?

If it hasn't been said to your IRL friend yet, tell her those are all bullets she dodged. Be glad when people rule themselves out.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh, she actually told me that immediately after she told me about it. I was very proud of her. :) She's very good at seeing the adaptive side of things like that. (I think you would like her.)

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, good, I'm glad she was able to take that perspective quickly. And yes, I probably would!

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

In real life gays and lesbians freeze me out. They just have no interest in me and don't seek out interaction.

I will occasionally be mistaken for a lesbian and I can tell if a gay man or lesbian I've bumped into is unusually friendly or chatty with me, it's because they think I'm a lesbian.

I've been belittled or mocked by lesbians just a couple of times to my face in real life, but those instances were rare and both times other lesbians intervened and put a stop to it.

Same with gay men. I was assaulted by a gay guy at a club once and some other guys pulled him off me and got me outside.

[–]MyLongestJourney 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I was assaulted by a gay guy at a club once

Why?

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

He was on MDMA and pinned me down on the floor and was groping me. I don't know why he did it, he later told other people he didn't remember doing it and I didn't speak to him after it happened. He was a big muscular guy and I couldn't move and briefly blacked out.

The people we were with did nothing, they just sat there watching, and some guys we didn't know noticed what was happening and came over and pulled me up and took me outside.

[–]MyLongestJourney 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Are you sure it was a gay guy and not a gold star lesbian?

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's enough. Not answering you anymore.

[–]MyLongestJourney 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I am not afraid of other lesbians. I am afraid of men. They are the ones most likely to kill me , rape me or maim me.

Satisfied dear bisexual ?

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

No, you didn't answer my question and you're being rude and defensive.

Does the dynamic I've described sound familiar to you? Am I wrong? Why am I wrong?

[–]MyLongestJourney 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Actually I did answer your question. You asked lesbians if they are afraid of other lesbians and I,as a lesbian said no. I also told you who really scares me the most : Men and their capability to cause devastating damage. To answer your second question : I have seen the dynamic you describe in school and at work,amongst mostly heterosexual people,but not in my lesbian circle.The behavior you describe is part of human nature in general and not exclusive to lesbians.Satisfied ?

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yes, thank you for answering my question. Just to reiterate, you were rude.

[–]MyLongestJourney 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

No I wasn't,but now I will. Go fuck yourself you shit stirrer. There. Now you can make another post of how much lesbians hurt you.

[–][deleted]  (4 children)

[removed]

    [–]MyLongestJourney 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Bwahahaha.

    [–]NutterButterFlutterStill waving into the void[M] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Removing due to being low on the Pyramid of debate (name-calling)

    [–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Are you going to be answering reports now? I'd like a comment from u/MyLongestJourney deleted.

    [–]MyLongestJourney 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Just for the record,I was not the one who reported your post calling me the c word.

    [–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    No, I'm not afraid of other lesbians. It feels like we're unicorns.

    [–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    If there is any truth to this, it's probably the result of a very small, historically-marginalized community being under ENORMOUS pressure. The TQ+ are hellbent on taking over lesbian culture, spaces, identity, and bodies; as straight people, they can overwhelm homosexual women simply through sheer numbers-- even more so with the mainstream support that "trans" currently enjoys. Divide-and-conquer is going on with a vengeance. Lesbians are (understandably!) feeling stressed, angry, demoralized, and threatened. This sort of thing doesn't always bring out the best in people. Particularly when they're forbidden to point the finger at those who are actually responsible.

    [–]lunarstrain 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I don't know if they scare me but some definitely put me off. I think it's only natural as we're a diverse group of people with a rather politically charged history. I find the internet brings out the ugliest parts of every group, too. However, I've never understood putting down another woman for having slept with a man in her past, seems pointless and shitty. I also don't see any value in putting down bisexual women, either. I personally wouldn't align myself with women that find either of those things acceptable.

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

    "gold star " is meant as a self-deprecating joke

    I've only ever seen it used in earnest, oddly enough, by women who felt it made them superior. :-/

    [–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    I've been thinking about this "gold star lesbian" concept, in light of the seismic Jay-Day Affair... and the following occurred to me.

    This can be used as a cudgel, of course-- against lesbians who weren't able (or, often, allowed) to be true to themselves, and bi women-- but perhaps it can represent something else, too. Something quite different.

    A vision of another world... where such a term would be unnecessary. Because it would go without saying. Since no one would ever have sex unless they genuinely wanted to. Anything else would be unthinkable. To everybody. Very much including straight men, who would find the prospect of sex with a woman who didn't want them the biggest turn-off imaginable.

    So a lesbian having sex with a man would, by definition, simply never happen.

    That's how it should be. For everyone.

    Sadly, we don't live in that world.

    But maybe, one day... we will.

    [–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    A vision of another world... where such a term would be unnecessary. Because it would go without saying. Since no one would ever have sex unless they genuinely wanted to. Anything else would be unthinkable. To everybody. Very much including straight men, who would find the prospect of sex with a woman who didn't want them the biggest turn-off imaginable.

    YES. Exactly. If you want I could dig up old argument threads about this from s/lesbians... people (some of them "gold stars") made this exact point. So, nice job, lol. Independent realizations!

    Also:

    This can be used as a cudgel, of course-- against lesbians who weren't able (or, often, allowed) to be true to themselves

    Thanks for observing this. That's the situation I was in. I often avoid conversations about "gold star" status because it just reminds me about a terrible period of my life... that makes me feel physically ill to remember. And people in those discussion posts sometimes ask very invasive questions about a lesbian woman's sexual history. There were people on s/lesbians demanding to know if people were bisexual, just because they'd had sexual experiences (consenting or not-consenting.......) with men!

    There seems to be a suspiciously similar pattern common to what happened on s/lesbians and what is apparently happening with s/lgbdropthet. A bunch of posters saying they're lesbian come in and start talk about being "gold stars" and how much they hate bisexual women... hmm. Just sounds incredibly divisive. On s/lesbians, the other divisive topics that people posted constantly about were "comphet" and radfems. Again, seeing some patterns...

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

    That's the situation I was in. I often avoid conversations about "gold star" status because it just reminds me about a terrible period of my life... that makes me feel physically ill to remember.

    I'm really sorry you had to go through that.

    people in those discussion posts sometimes ask very invasive questions about a lesbian woman's sexual history

    ...your papers, please?

    Unfortunately this smacks of the immaturity that kept me far away from the local lesbian "community" when I came out (as a lesbian, which is how I lived for many years).

    Aren't there enough things to worry about in life w/o alienating those like oneself?

    On a related note, a random bisexual woman on Twitter tried to inform everyone tonight that bisexuals are attracted to gender (not sex). I offered a correction (sex isn't gender) and her response was to ask if I was bisexual. So I countered by asking her if that info was actually needed before it was possible for her to understand what "bisexual" means, and got back an assumption that I wasn't bisexual, and therefore could not discuss what the word means. Unfortunately for her fatal disqualification gambit, she also claimed to have been openly bisexual for decades, which made it even easier to point out that she had no excuse not to know what the word means.

    Happy Pride! What a world.

    [–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Thanks for the empathy, I really appreciate it. It's not an easy thing to explain to curious straight people, either. Fortunately, most people I am around these days don't know that unfortunate detail of my personal history.

    people in those discussion posts sometimes ask very invasive questions about a lesbian woman's sexual history

    ...your papers, please?

    Lolllllllll, for real though it did have that tone to it, haha.

    So I countered by asking her if that info was actually needed before it was possible for her to understand what "bisexual" means, and got back an assumption that I wasn't bisexual, and therefore could not discuss what the word means. Unfortunately for her fatal disqualification gambit, she also claimed to have been openly bisexual for decades, which made it even easier to point out that she had no excuse not to know what the word means.

    Yeah, what a world. I don't know which is worse-- being that wrong/misinformed for decades, or making that big of a lie about your sexual orientation...

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Thanks for the empathy, I really appreciate it. It's not an easy thing to explain to curious straight people, either. Fortunately, most people I am around these days don't know that unfortunate detail of my personal history.

    That's good, it sucks having to relive hard things from the past for no good reason.

    I don't know which is worse-- being that wrong/misinformed for decades, or making that big of a lie about your sexual orientation...

    I don't know. She replied to me twice after that in some huffy fashion, but I decided more garbage wasn't something I wanted to read. I didn't really think she would listen to me anyway, given that she has pronouns on her bio. She was just someone who popped up when I was scrolling and it was just time to say something factual to someone on Twitter. I don't indulge in that very often.

    [–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    If you want I could dig up old argument threads about this from s/lesbians... people (some of them "gold stars") made this exact point. So, nice job, lol. Independent realizations!

    Yeah, I'd really appreciate your sharing those threads with me! Delighted to hear that there are lesbians who have the same take on "gold star"-ism as I do... particularly because, once I clicked that "save" button, I was actually having some second thoughts. Did I just write something too emotional, and/or presumptuous? Would it look silly, overwrought, and like I should have stayed in my lane? HAVE I JUST EMBARRASSED MYSELF??? So it's welcome news (and a relief) to find that what I saw is something that others have seen, too :)

    That's the situation I was in. I often avoid conversations about "gold star" status because it just reminds me about a terrible period of my life... that makes me feel physically ill to remember.

    Oh, Rellie... I'm so sad that you went through that. And that so many lesbians do, still. But I'm glad that you managed to come out the other side. You were strong enough to do that. Even as bad as it was... it didn't stop you. Always remember that.

    My own past also causes me a lot of pain. There isn't much good to say about it, honestly. And sexuality is one of the core themes. You'd think that at least I woulda gotten a break on the opposite-sex part, wouldn't you? But no: that's been just as difficult to deal with as the same-sex part-- quite possibly even more so. Sometimes the grief is so overwhelming that I really think I will die of it. Thank god that, after decades of shit therapy which did me more harm than good, I've finally found a shrink who's actually worth a damn!

    There seems to be a suspiciously similar pattern common to what happened on s/lesbians and what is apparently happening with s/lgbdropthet. A bunch of posters saying they're lesbian come in and start talk about being "gold stars" and how much they hate bisexual women... hmm. Just sounds incredibly divisive. On s/lesbians, the other divisive topics that people posted constantly about were "comphet" and radfems. Again, seeing some patterns...

    Now, THAT'S interesting, isn't it? Makes you wonder what's up... like they say: it ain't paranoia if they really ARE out to get ya! Though the whole Jay-Day Tsunami did make me think that, even if we were to drop the T (please god!!!)... there would still be some problems within LGB. You know? They're wrecking so much havoc that we forget all three letters weren't just holding hands and singing Kumbaya before the TQ+ came along. Each had its own issues-- sometimes with the others, sometimes internally (such as, for the L, "gold stars" vs those who weren't so fortunate). Which still need to be dealt with. Hopefully, once the Pod People are sent packing, we can attend to our own business again, including that.

    [–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Same, unfortunately, lol. But honestly-- I only see the "gold star" topic brought up online...... like I've literally never heard a lesbian woman talk like this IRL. u/yousaythosethings, sorry to bother ya but I know you've expressed a similar opinion before.

    [–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yes, my experience has been that gold star concern is mainly an online-only wedge issue. I think it’s online fear mongering that has been gaining momentum in places like r/latebloomerlesbians by women with little to no real world lesbian experience. The practical effect is discord in every online lesbian and lesbi community. The idea that lesbians are widely subjected to some sort of gold star purity test is a total flame. But places like r/latebloomerlesbians also gas up a lot of newly identifying “lesbians” with suspect stories and a chip on their shoulder who give off the same “not wanting to date us is discriminatory” energy that transbians are known for. This is not to say that absolutely no one cares IRL but the bark is way bigger than the bite.

    And I say this as a non-gold star LBL.

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I've heard it offline, many years ago. That concept has been around for decades.

    [–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    I've only ever heard it from middle aged gay men irl, who were definitely joking.

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    Sadly some are not joking; by some I mean lesbians. It is unclear how it would be relevant when a G or B person jokes about the "gold star" concept; we aren't the ones either using that as part of our identities or being subjected to unfair judgment by lesbians who do.

    [–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Do they get judged? I thought they were supposed to be superior.

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    we aren't the ones either using that as part of our identities or being subjected to unfair judgment by lesbians who do

    That's a reference to non-gold-stars being mistreated for not being "gold stars."

    [–]PatsyStoneMaverique[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Ahhhhh, ok I misread. Sorry.

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    No problem.