all 40 comments

[–]CaptainMooseEx-Bathhouse Employee 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

One thing I will say on the subject of David Levithan- I think it's interesting that his most successful work has always centered or included heterosexuality (Nick & Norah's Infinite Playlist, Every Day, etc.) while he works that center on the often uncomfortable experiences of gay teenage boys (Wide Awake, Boy Meets Boy, etc.) never seem to get adapted or celebrated.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It’s like he knows that most people don’t want to read about gay storylines, except for yaoi fangirls, who often don’t understand male homosexuality.

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In my experience, straights are only comfortable with us when we're in the background. Or dying.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I haven't read any of his other books, and now I don't want to. Thankfully, I bought this one from Goodwill for two dollars, so at least I didn't make him any money.

[–]hufflepuff-poet 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If you're looking for good YA fiction about two gay teens, I recommend Dante and Aristotle discover the secrets of the universe!! A beautiful story, and it has a sequel! 💙

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've read that, but I didn't know there was a sequel. I'll check it out, thanks.

Do you have any other recommendations? It doesn't have to be YA, just LGB with no T.

[–]book_hoarder 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I keep getting recommended this on Amazon. I think I might download the audiobook now.

[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 15 insightful - 4 fun15 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

What a time to be alive

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Growing up in a hyper-conservative Christian fundamentalist household, I struggled daily with homophobia. But I never let it get to me. I knew there was nothing wrong with me, and I refused to let a bunch of religious freaks dictate how I felt about myself. I was resilient.

Fast forward ten years, and here I am struggling daily with homophobia again. Looking back, I never saw this coming. I never would've guessed, not in a million years, that it would be 'queer' people who would make me ashamed of being gay.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Trans dollars spend just the same.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

True, unfortunately.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly, and there are way more trans-identified people than LGB people.

[–]HelloMomo 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Years ago, my at-the-time best friend read that book aloud to me. I didn't think much of it, but my friend-at-the-time had just come out then, and something about the book's chorus of gay predecessors watching over the youth of today really spoke to her.

This was long enough ago that I do remember side-eyeing the trans thing, but didn't really dwell on it too much.

What I very much remember about that plotline is how young the characters came across. At some point partway though the book, I think one of them drives a car, and my friend and I suddenly realized that that Ryan and Avery were actually supposed to be several years older than we'd thought they were. If I recall they're actually like 16, but we thought they were 13.

My friend flipped back through the book and figured out that in the scene where they first meet, they're looking across the room, over the head of this 13-year-old kid. She concluded that somehow we had gotten mixed up on that line, and had thought that the 13-year-olds were them, not some other kid at the dance.

I thought we maybe just thought of them as young teens because they just seem like young teens. One has pink hair and the other has blue hair. There's the trans thing, which even back then I associated with a middle school phase. And their relationship is very chaste, taking things slow. (I think it's a first relationship for both of them, though don't quote me on that.) It's not that any of these things are conspicuously out of place for 16-years-olds, but they're equally believable for 13-year-olds.

So I dunno, I find it moderately funny that the arrested development that comes with trans identity shone show clearly through this book, event though it presumably wasn't what the author was going for.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

and something about the book's chorus of gay predecessors watching over the youth of today really spoke to her.

I actually thought that was a really cool idea. But the author ruined it with the trans stuff. I seriously doubt the gay men of the AIDS era would be so supportive of gay boys dating females. I imagine they'd have the courage to call a spade a spade. Revisionist nonsense.

And I agree that the characters seemed too young. I guess that's just a problem with adults writing kids, though.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I seriously doubt the gay men of the AIDS era would be so supportive of gay boys dating females.

So many were unapologetically celebrating male bodies and gay male sexuality, in defiance of society and aids. Now young people apologize for their genital preference, and try to work around vagina.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's honestly heartbreaking. The homophobes have mastered their craft.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

We have traitors amongst us. They are hoping to brainwash young gay men into accepting this bullshit, and so far, they have been succeeding. Using firebending tactics, like books, podcasts and other media to spread propaganda to corrupt the gay youth with. Just wait until a brainwashed gay man gets hit on by a woman who thinks she’s a man.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

"Do you think trans men are real men?"

"Yes! Of course!"

"So you'd sleep with a trans man?"

"Oh. Well, um... I mean... The thing is... Like... But. Y'know. It's, um... Just..."

No homosexual male wants to have sex with a female. The truth only upsets liars.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

I remember how Owen Jones got livid when people suggested he sleep with trans “men” after he was shaming lesbians for refusing to sleep with trans “women”.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It would be funny, if it weren't so sad.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Everything about Owen Jones is sad. Can you imagine a man so pathetic, and so unloved by everyone who is not a journalist or a politician? I don't feel sorry for him, because I have a lot of contempt for him. But he is definitely a sad, pathetic man in his late thirties.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Maybe that's his kink? Some people love to be hated, for whatever reason. I remember when Milo Yiannopoulos was a thing.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Milo Yiannopoulos stopped being relevant in 2017 after a myriad of problems became clear to his former fans. He’s too catty, he makes poor financial decisions (he’d spend €20m in a day), he opposes gay marriage despite getting married to another man. Yes, I can agree to disagree with someone on gay marriage, even though I support it, but I cannot wrap my head around someone who’s against gay marriage going out of his way to marry another man. But what really damaged him was that clip where he suggested lowering the age of consent to 13. Yeah, how about keeping it at 16 or 17?

Now Milo is pretending to be straight. I frankly don’t believe it. Again, it’s another failed attempt at gaining back relevancy, this time with conservative evangelical Christians. Whom ironically don’t even care about homosexuality as much as they used to, and probably don’t like being lied to. I bet his husband left him because he got fed up with Milo's irresponsible financial habits, and so Milo pretended to be straight out of bitterness.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But what really damaged him was that clip where he suggested lowering the age of consent to 13. Yeah, how about keeping it at 16 or 17?

FYI... not sure if you're already aware, but I remember I went back and watched that video interview where he talked about kids being able to consent. That quote was actually in the context of him describing how a priest did sex acts with him when he was a young teenager. The interviewer was like, "Uh, whoa Milo, that's sexual abuse!" and Milo was like, "No, of course it wasn't, of course I consented, I was a kid, I was asking for it obviously" and the interviewer was like, "Kids can't consent" and Milo was like "Yes they can" and well, you know the rest.

I point that out because that is an incredibly relevant piece of context... yet of course the way the quote was reported conveniently neglected that information! News outlets were happy to frame him as a predator. I am no fan of Milo, but with that context, it sounded to me like he was trying to rationalize away the sexual abuse that happened to him as a kid, not talk about how hot he thinks kids are. That doesn't make his p*dophilia-enabling comments any less harmful, but I think it says something about his motivations.

u/throwaway5722 pinging in case you were curious, since you both were talking about Milo.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I appreciate the context, but if he said anything that even remotely excuses pedophilia, he deserves [REDACTED]. I take that sort of thing very seriously.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think Milo suffers from the same thing most trans people do; A deep-seated psychological problem that they refuse to address. I don't know what, exactly, but these people are clearly running from something.

Also, why do they always turn out to be pedophiles? It can't be a coincidence.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thankfully, Milo hasn’t transitioned. At least not yet. Maybe he has psychological problems, but he also craves attention. Which admittedly is a symptom of a psychological problem.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)


Sorry, can you elaborate this? My mind went to ATLA, lol.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Avatar reference. Bending things or people to ones will.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

One of the greatest TV series of all time. I re-watch it every year.

[–]Rage-Xion 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Have you played Life Is Strange: True Colors ? We have a love story between the bisexual protagonist Alex and the lesbian Steph. However, Steph's dating history includes a trans-identified boy (who never appears but we hear his masculine voice at one point). Great. Another medium that sends the messages that nice gay people date the opposit sex.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've never played it, but I've heard of it. As someone who used to play video games obsessively, it's remarkable how we went from 'no gays allowed' to 'everyone and their mother is trans' so quickly.

Gay characters are still rare, but there are seemingly more trans characters every year.

[–]Bright_paintingLoad, lesbian biologist 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have played the game, and as I remember it, the trans woman only were a close friend and band member of hers, not someone Steph actually dated. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Seeing your comment mentioning homophobia I wonder if this is a result of internalized homophobia but sprinkled with being "progressive and woke"? But yeah, they really delude themselves thinking that a trans guy with a gay man isn't just masculinized straight woman forcing a gay man to like her and her "boy" pussy....

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure it's just a socialization thing. Most people follow the leader, they don't want to risk expulsion from their in-group. Being LGB already makes us vulnerable, I can understand why someone wouldn't want to risk losing what little support they have.

That's how cults propagate, though, by preying on the vulnerable and desperate and lonely. It's easy to let someone else think for you, especially when you're tired from the fight. But we have to have the courage to do what's right, not just what's easiest.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Seeing your comment mentioning homophobia I wonder if this is a result of internalized homophobia but sprinkled with being "progressive and woke"?

No, there's a simpler explanation: he wants the TQ+ money and credibility in their organizations, that's it.

He has no integrity whatsoever.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, it's probably just a marketing thing. Including the T will garner praise and awards from the activist organizations. More recognition, more money.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Seeing your comment mentioning homophobia I wonder if this is a result of internalized homophobia but sprinkled with being "progressive and woke"?

That was my first thought, also. Just left a comment about it.

I do think that internalized homophobia is at play in more of these situations than may be apparent. It's not just money-grubbing. If people like this are actually homosexual (and not closeted bisexuals), there's gotta be some internal pain and cognitive dissonance going on there.

[–]reluctant_commenter 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ryan is a homosexual who doesn't mind at all when Avery reveals that he has a vagina. Why would he? It's not like being gay means you're attracted exclusively to the same sex or anything.

Straight people who write books like this don't understand what homosexuality is and they refuse to. It's called willful ignorance. The marvelous thing about homosexuality, as a natural phenomenon, is that it excludes the very people who fetishize us. That's bound to induce a lot of rage in that special subset of straight people who refuse to take "no" for an answer.

I'm sorry to hear you were surprised by this while reading this book. It's absolutely disgusting that these straight people who fetishize us not only talk over us but try to deny the very fact of our existence.

David Levithan is a gay man! It's not just straight people trying to erase us anymore, the homophobia is coming from inside the house!

Internalized homophobia is powerful. I know this myself; I used to want to transition so that I could be "straight" and wouldn't be a lesbian woman anymore. Thank god I found the old droptheT sub and some good reading material before I drank the Kool-Aid.