all 45 comments

[–]Horror-SwordfishI don't get how flairs work 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

lol Yeah, the question becomes why. Like it's just so inconceivable that a gay man or a lesbian might just... want to have kids. No, gay parents adopting children or having kids through surrogates or IVF are doing it because they're part of a misogynistic conspiracy to... uh... create soulless demon children? I honestly have no idea what point is attempting to be made here.

[–]stunaep[S] 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The soulless demon comment was on some other shit haahaha

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Surrogacy is disliked by Radfems because they believe it is abusive to women, and to them it's a type of prostitution. A woman is being paid by the couple to use her body. I'm generally ok with a woman that happens to be pregnant, is unable to take care of the child or just doesn't want a kid and at that time comes across a couple that wants to have a child, to me this is just adoption. I do get weirded out when it's a couple (same-sex or not) paying a woman to get pregnant. (Not a radfem btw, but being a trans-exclusionist lesbian I come across them a lot.)

Furthermore, many radfems are anti-natalists. They consider procreation to be morally wrong. Some for reasons such as eugenics, overpopulation, the negative health effects pregnant women face, and because pregnant women will be in some way tied to the father.

[–]ElectraHeart 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To be honest, Radfems could channel their energy to heterosexuals, who are the lifeline of the industry. In true heterosexual solidarity they will never do that however. For gay men, surrogacy is a near impossibility unless you're famous and have a lot of money.

1) Be gay. (2-5% chance) 2) Live in a country that does not kill gay men for existing. (70 countries kill gay men) 3) Live in a country that has marriage equality. (Only 30 countries have gay marriage) 4) Live in a country that has adoption / parenting rights for gay men. (27 Countries) 5) Have enough money to pay for a surrogate and all the medical costs. (Gay men are overrepresented at homelessness / poverty)

Like if you can do this, congrats, you're one of the very, very few gay men who can even access this kind of thing. For me heterosexual surrogacy is even worse, because its about women refusing to get pregnant and relegating that to another poor woman. Last time I saw criticism of the heterosexual surrogacy which is the overwhelming majority of surrogacy, was like last year. Meanwhile slatzism and tumblrinas go buckwild on random gay men lol.

[–]hellonumpty 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Another one of this idiots comments:

Gay men are not oppressed. Gay men are still men. Gay men have never been denied the right to employment, property, money or control of their chattels.

???

[–]CancelPowerSuper Bi Male 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That comment is so weird and out of touch with reality. I don't really like to play oppression Olympics because it's just silly and we are all in this together but for her information, does she even realize that gay men have always been target #1 for homophobia both in the present and the past? Gay men significantly face hate crimes more than the other same-sex attracted people, and usually when somebody says "I hate f#gs" they honestly just mean gay and bi men.

Again, I don't like to play this game because same-sex attracted individuals have to stick together and homophobia affects all of us but...c'mon, if you want to play it first at least say something that makes sense.

[–]stunaep[S] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gay males don't even have the right to be alive in some countries.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

My best friend, who is like a brother to me, is a gay man. He's experienced being disowned, and has been bullied since elementary because he's somewhat effeminate, and has the "gay accent." He's 6'1'' and is still afraid to be in public with his boyfriend. Yes he's a man, but a gay man is still a gay man, and homophobes will target them same with lesbians.

Ovarit is filled with straight people, I read the site time from time as they have the latest news on the gender wars. The Gender Critical circle for example there is very homophobic, lesbophobic, and biphobic, if you speak out against any of it there you will be branded as a "double agent," and chased off the site.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sorry to hear about what your friend has been through. Hopefully he’s doing much better now.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

He is. I've know him since freshmen year of high school, so eight years now I think. We became friends because we were both bullied hard for being the few openly gay kids. His brother, and some of his family are supportive, and my parents are supportive of gay people so they just kind of adopted him. I don't really have a lot of family members, at all, so he didn't need to go through the coming out process with a different family. Gays got to stick together.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Glad to hear he's doing better.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

People have been fired for being gay or even being perceived as being gay in many countries, including many countries that now have gay marriage. We couldn’t even serve in the military in some countries, and some still don’t allow us into their militaries. In many countries, a lot of gay men weren’t allowed to inherit from their deceased partners despite being mentioned in the will. Thousands of gay men even lost custody of their children just because they were gay.

Anyone can be oppressed, but don’t pretend that gay men have always had it easy everywhere.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

radfem/sjw overlap

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I keep thinking there's a need for a "guess which one it is: radfem or TRA" sub...

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 13 insightful - 10 fun13 insightful - 9 fun14 insightful - 10 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t think homosexual people should have to hide in the shadows

Idk, It's really hard not to be tempted to become part of the dark shadow race when your own child is a "semi-soulless demon baby". It's just a part and parcel of being a homosexual parent. /s

[–]juoreally tired woman 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don't really get why she's mad about a woman having a kid that she's going to raise with another woman... Doesn't she hates men ? It should be the "perfect ending" for a men hating woman imo...

[–]stunaep[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Homophobia supersedes her attempt at "feminism."

[–]hellonumpty 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

She does hate men but her comment reads like she still values the nuclear family and that kids should have a mother and a father. Maybe I'm just not getting it. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[–]Horror-SwordfishI don't get how flairs work 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Maybe it's, "Well, I hate men, but if kids grow up without a father (and all fathers are of course, terrible) then they might not hate men because they won't have a terrible father being an awful man around them" ?

[–]stunaep[S] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Their homophobia is something different from them hating all men, but they do try to mask it by saying "gay men are MEN and that's why we hate them!" but this one slipped and admitted she felt that way about lesbians too, showing it's just pure homophobia which they try to mask with their whole in-group "we hate all men so it's okay, right everyone?"

[–]juoreally tired woman 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lovely...

[–]jim_steak 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I mean, she's definitely hyperbolic, but I don't necessarily disagree. I'm not sold on the idea that a child doesn't need a mother and a father to develop normally, and I have heard people who were sperm bank or surrogate children say they felt disconnected and strange compared to other people. It would be one thing if the gay people I've met seemed really invested in the idea of raising a child, but many of the gay people who've told me they wanted to have kids seemed to be approaching it almost as part of a checklist of things you "just do" to have a normal life.

I used to think I wanted to have kids, but the more I thought about it I realized that desire was more about wanting to fit in to society than it actually was about wanting kids, at least for me. There are definitely some gay people who are more seriously committed to the idea of having kids, but even then I would still like to see some long term studies to make sure that normal childhood development still happens in those families.

[–]RippoffOfLoveSStraight | Overuses quotation marks 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not sold on the idea that a child doesn't need a mother and a father to develop normally

Until all heterosexual parents are perfect, I fail to see how this would matter.

[–]stunaep[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

While I've been fond of pointing this out in the past as well, let's be real: I wonder if this would even out if heterosexual couples had to go through the same efforts to have a kid. I'm not sure we can credibly compare these two scenarios given that one can "accidentally" happen and the other can't.

Incidentally, the title of that includes "parent-reported."

[–]CleverFoolOfEarth 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

if heterosexual couples had to go through the same efforts to have a kid

There's still no such thing as an in-person opposite-sex relationship that is happy and stable and I fully admit I only defend long-distance ones for the sake of avoiding hypocrisy as I'm currently in one because my boyfriend and we stabilize eachother's mental health. A home with opposite-sex parents cannot be an adequately safe and caring environment for a child because of this lack of equality and thus stability.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm afraid I can't quite make sense of your assertions here, as they sound as dogmatic and disconnected from reality as some of the sentiments of some women on Ovarit.

[–]CleverFoolOfEarth 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

The only stable, happy couple I've ever met full stop was two lesbians I knew in high school. Meanwhile, my (opposite-sex) parents are both dicks to eachother and are really fukken bad at parenting.

I back my ideas with observation and logic.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's what most of us here do. Making a blanket statement that's trivially easy to refute—so easy that it isn't worth the effort to do so—is a perplexing choice.

I'm sorry your parents are dicks, nonetheless.

[–]CleverFoolOfEarth 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sorry your parents are dicks, nonetheless.

Yeah I'm pretty damn sorry they're dicks too, they're a right pain to put up with.

[–]CancelPowerSuper Bi Male 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Lol, what? Are you saying that heterosexual people aren't happy and no heterosexual relationship is good and stable? Like...what the hell? I hope I'm reading this comment wrong because it just makes literally no sense.

[–]CleverFoolOfEarth 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

What's there not to understand? Due to differences in physical strength and socialization, women cannot even give genuine, uncoerced full consent to sex with men. How could a relationship on such shaky grounds be stable long-term. And mind you, I'm not a lesbian who only understands relationships with males in the theoretical sense, I'm deeply in love with a man and we've been long-distance but exclusive for two years now.

[–]CancelPowerSuper Bi Male 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Due to differences in physical strength and socialization

My ex was stronger than me, so I guess I should tell him that he was raping me all this time? Or does it not count because we are both men? What about all the other homosexual men and women in relationships with somebody stronger? Are they being raped as well because of the "differences in physical strength and socialization"?

I'm sorry but your statement is absolutely ridiculous and insane.

[–]CleverFoolOfEarth 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I've been recently made aware, an IRL friend of mine found my Saidit account this evening, read through my comments, and sent me an 11-point bulleted list over Discord of why I'm evidently a goddamn moron for thinking like this, that a bunch of the shit I've written here is fucktarded, and that wherever I originally found these ideas is highly suspect and is almost certainly some form of ideological agitation meant to drive people away from reality (It was some website I followed from a link on Tumblr when I was 13, so that honestly is at least within the realm of possibility).

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I wonder if this would even out if heterosexual couples had to go through the same efforts to have a kid.

It's a good question. But because of the nature of same sex attraction, in the long run we'll still probably still see higher values for LGB couples anyway just because of the barriers to access filtering out some people who might've accidentally had kids (and maybe resented them, not had the resources to parent them well, etc.) had they been in an opposite sex relationship.

That said, still a good study to reference, for same purpose that stunaep used it used it for.

Incidentally, the title of that includes "parent-reported."

This is an undervalued observation in psychology research. Parent-report data can be really insightful, but in some contexts it can be incredibly biased. Really depends on what you're asking the parents... such as, "Are your kids abused at home?" Worth pointing out, for sure!

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Really depends on what you're asking the parents... such as, "Are your kids abused at home?"

You found the nail and hit it with a sledgehammer. As someone who, as a child, listened to one of my parents (the abuser) lie to concerned adults who called to ask about my wellbeing, yeah, "parent-reported" isn't something I would take very seriously. Always fun listening to that parent shine them on over the phone, hang up and then go back to abusing me. Chilling AF. (This is also likely why I was informed by said parent that I was was "an embarrassment"—the distress I expressed at school was noteworthy to observers.)

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm so, so sorry that happened to you. You deserved better than that. That is incredibly chilling behavior to witness. Unfortunately, I think the prevalence of situations like that are really underreported... like, people in social work and researchers know it happens, but are probably still way underestimating it. I think many of them just don't realize how manipulative people can really be, and therefore take the parents' claims of good intentions at face value.

Hope you've been able to recover from that messed-up situation. Hurts my heart to know that stuff like that has happened to you, knowing how freaking awesome you are.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

people who were sperm bank or surrogate children say they felt disconnected and strange compared to other people

This is part of what would concern me as well. Because each of us who has kids, no matter how, is playing "god" in some way and it matters that we think about how the child is going to see that when they're old enough to wonder. That said, I've seen this done in a healthier way a couple of times, where both biological parents were participants in the child's life, and everyone was honest with the child. Which mostly meant the kid had more parents. But I don't know how common that is.

I do know it's alienating to know almost nothing about half your family history. Not knowing anything at all would be worse and definitely feel like a disconnect. But I'm thinking of that more in terms of surrogacy than adoption, because using a surrogate is still the voluntary creation of a new life. Adoptive parents could have less control over helping their child understand the situation, while still being awesome parents for that child.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It would be one thing if the gay people I've met seemed really invested in the idea of raising a child, but many of the gay people who've told me they wanted to have kids seemed to be approaching it almost as part of a checklist of things you "just do" to have a normal life.

While that's not ideal, that's true with a lot of opposite-sex couples too though. And no one has a problem with that... up until the parents literally get into the news cycle for something stupid or bad they did.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are some horror stories with heterosexual parents. Torturing their own children, abandoning them, and even selling them off into human trafficking. If a same-sex couple can give a child a good and loving home, they can face any troubles that surrogacy and adoption might bring. Every single family on earth has issues, so let's not single out same-sex parents when it comes to this. I think that user is experiencing what they call internalized homophobia.

I believe adoption or taking care of kids in foster care are great options, there are many children that are already here in need of a good home. Most of whom were abandoned by straight people, but let's gloss over that. At the same time I 100% understand that many same-sex couples aren't willing/able to go through all the legal stuff, aren't able to financially go through all that, or it's illegal where they are. If they want to have a kid they can pursue that however they feel is best.

[–]CleverFoolOfEarth 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's horrible! Especially because same-sex couples are inherently more equal and thus more stable than opposite-sex ones and this carries over to parenting.

[–]stunaep[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

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DoomedSibyl

Just why are we supporting “homosexual parenthood” when in fact there is no such thing? Neither two men nor two women can reproduce so their parenthood requires exploitation one way or another. And lies. And is just as much a part of transhumanism and the overturning of the natural order as the other things we decry and they’re all rooted in misogyny, hatred of life and hubris. Nor are the children of these arrangements happy about it. Generations of them are now adults, at least as the product of artificial insemination and IVF. The stories of people born of artificial insemination and donor eggs and raised with no genetic connections or in some cases mothers are out there. They make tragic reading. Many of these people feel like they’re some kind of alien creature, not even fully human. Forever a little disconnected from the rest of society. The same is true of infant adoption.

Don’t misunderstand me. I used to say and believe the exact same thing. Even with my hatred of reproductive slavery I said the same thing but now question all of it. A poster further down questions the ethics of gamete donation so at least I know I’m not alone.

A story. Years ago I was working for a large corporation. A colleague told me that a coworker from another department was coming to show us her baby later. “Wow,” I thought to myself. “A baby. I thought she was a lesbian.” I’d always liked this woman and looked forward to her arrival.

She was a lesbian. She arrived later that day, thin as a whippet, defiantly and awkwardly slinging a gigantic male infant that could not possibly have been born to her. It was painful watching her with this poor child. I had a visceral sense of horror that I was ashamed of but will not disown. Even though it’s taken years to truly admit to myself what my instincts and intuition told me.

She explained that her partner had carried the baby and that they’d purposefully chosen a Jewish donor over six feet tall to make up for their physical tininess. It was like she’d been tasked with looking after the baby of a giantess. The child was dull eyed and disconnected. I don’t think there was anything empirically wrong with him, but something was wrong with him.

Once she’d opened the topic of sperm banks, I asked what she was going to tell the child when he got old enough to ask about his father. “I’ll tell him that he was number 63785 at the sperm bank; that’s all he needs to know.”

“Why do I think that won’t be enough?” I wondered internally. She then offered to let me hold the baby. I instinctively blanched and stepped back and then tried to cover. Because my honest reaction was “No, no thank you. I don’t want to hold your semi-soulless demon baby.” Yeah, I know. It has taken me years to even be honest in my own head about what I felt.

I don’t think homosexual people should have to hide in the shadows or pretend to have best friends when their partner is in fact their life long partner. A visible, respected, equal place in society. But does this really mean turning gay people into fake heterosexuals? I hoped that among other things gay marriage would open up renewed critique of heterosexual marriage. No such luck and somehow an unintended consequence is that it is entrenching the exploitation of women in even more ways than before.

The rush to buy the products of surrogate wombs and eggs and sperm and healthy white infants from teenage girls and in the process create people who don’t even feel like they’re people. Does this truly make homosexual people equal or does it just allow them to take part in patriarchal norms and expectations? You know you’re equal when you can exploit others? What would homosexuality truly accepted by society look like? Is it really as easy as imitation heterosexuality? It’s understandable to want to participate in the social norms of your society. I guess I just didn’t expect that this would involve tripling down on the hatred and exploitation of women. Then again the ownership of women and by extension children is the cornerstone of patriarchy so I guess I really shouldn’t be surprised.

Because all of this is in the same continuum of potentially harvesting wombs to implant them in men. All of it. Surrogacy. Adoption. Reproductive technology and infertility treatment. Gamete harvesting and selling. Transplanted wombs. The sterilization of children so that they can believe that they can change sex. Transhumanism. It’s all misogyny, reproductive slavery and eugenics. And there’s no reason for any of it. It’s not like we are in danger of extinction. So the question becomes why.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know Im late to the party, but I have to comment on this.

I have only read the post, so I don’t know what Ovarit in general thinks about homosexuality. But here is my stance on homosexual parenting: I’m okay with it. I believe that when it comes to adopting an orphan, a gay couple should have the same opportunities a straight couple has. Obviously, adoption should be a last resort, but there are times when it is necessary. Ideally, if a child loses his parents, he ends up living with relatives, like grandparents or aunts/uncles. If that means he ends up raised by his uncle and his uncle's husband (also uncle), then I’m all for it, because the child stays within the family. Although I consider that guardianship, rather than parenting, but it’s the same effect.

I have reservations about surrogacy and IVF. You are deliberately bringing a child into this world, only to separate the child from one of his or her biological parents. Every child should have the right to know about his or her genetic lineage and background. Surrogacy is worse, because it deprives the child of natural breast milk from the woman who gave birth to him. Men cannot breastfeed. Given that there is a dire shortage of baby formulae in America, towards which the federal government appears to be indifferent, I am more convinced that the child needs his or her birth mother for the first six months of his or her post-natal life.

Personally, I think a better solution would be for a male couple and a female couple to make arrangements where they have children, live close by and share custody of their children. A child raised in such an environment will have a dad, a mam, a stepdad and a stepmam. I also believe that the role of an uncle and an aunt is important for a child's development. Now, I’m all for people having children to keep the country’s population going, but that doesn’t mean everyone has to reproduce. People can always have big families, with gay uncles and lesbian aunts helping to support their nieces and nephews.

[–]automoderatorHuman-Exclusionary Radical Overlord[M] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

RIP Snappy, I AM THE NEW GOD!

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[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m horrified for her. This story sickens me— giving up her legal rights (and as such any connection she could ever hope to have) to give up her baby to two men. And I don’t mean because they are gay, I am not homophobic and support gay parents. I just don’t understand the mother losing her legal rights and connections and true ability to support and advocate and raise her own baby. This story hurts my soul.

This isn't how surrogacy works as far as I know. it requires two women for a gay couple, one to donate an egg (could be a willing sister in law) and then egg is fertilized. Egg is then implanted in a women who has no biological connection to egg or sperm donors. So she has no legal right to the baby, and if she is bonding, it is with a child that isn't genetically or legally hers. In adoption she is at least the natural mother.

As far as i know the radfems are against this because on principle it uses the second woman as incubator, which is another discussion. Also they can't be against the egg donor woman, because males donate sperm as well.

Edit:

first comment, ignorant, as well as anti male.

She is not a surrogate; she is the mother of this child. What do you want to bet this is a turkey baster situation.

Men are pigs. In other news, water is wet.