DiscussionExtreme Homophobia on Ovarit (the norm)

submitted by stunaep from self.LGBDropTheT

My favorite part is when they say that gay males are worse than the alt-right.

https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/82864/psa-regarding-sex-separate-toilets-some-basic-facts-of-life-i-think-young-people

https://ovarit.com/o/Radfemmery/83074/i-hope-we-all-acknowledge-this-here-3

(Archive links incoming)

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[–][deleted] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I'm not sure I agree that there's massive homophobia in either of those threads.

In the first circle for GenderCritical, there is #8 calling out misogyny among gay men, but I feel like the crux of the conversation is about general male-vs-female battles and where/how RadFems need to focus (or refocus) on women's rights and needs. I see a lot of misandry, which is normal and comes with the territory.

In the second circle for Radfemmery, I just see a whole lot of support for us in DropTheT. That circle is meant to be more light-hearted than others while still keeping true to the purpose of the site (RadFems) - it's the remake of TrollGC. The comment discussing gay men as alt-right is describing another user and how they tried to correct that user.. Sounds to me like they were policing homophobia, not encouraging it.

[–]SerpensInferna 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I don't see massive homophobia either. Not sure what the point of the OP was unless it's meant to stir up infighting?

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I see a lot of misandry, which is normal and comes with the territory.

It is? Normal for radfems, you mean?

I just see a whole lot of support for us in DropTheT

I think many radfems support DropTheT because they understand that DropTheT is aligned against their enemy ideology, transgender ideology. However, a lot of people even in the second more "lighthearted" thread are casually homophobic. I made a comment about this. I'll stipulate, like always... #NotAllRadfems... there are some incredibly LGB-supportive people in the GC movement (shoutout Helen Joyce, JD Ghassan Robertson, Graham Linehan). But homophobia is such a common pattern in radical feminist writing and beliefs that I'm not surprised to find it in their communities, either. Did they say anything like "Suck my dick or die"? No; but homophobia is homophobia, I think it's still worth calling out.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I see a lot of misandry, which is normal and comes with the territory.

It is? Normal for radfems, you mean?

Yes, from what I've seen. They are critically analyzing how women have been oppressed - which is good! But that also means in certain ways, they are now the oppressors, as mens views should not have validity due to the tainted patriarchy which created the structure. If a woman brings up something positive about men, or ways that men are suffering under current society, it's dismissed as succumbing to the patriarchy ("not my Nigel", LibFem pandering, etc etc), and the user is slowly ousted from the community.

I learned that there is a difference between being gender critical (critical of gender) vs being GenderCritical (RadFem). It's important to distinguish between that. I respect what my GC/RF sisters are going for, but I don't support many of their perspectives, too extreme for me. I have a brother, a father, a grandfather, a nephew, and several male friends - I want them to have equality too, and not just be products of a sick nurtured society. I want them to be aware of and accountable for their individual actions, and learn to grow beyond gender roles and societal pressures, which means not blaming or shaming them for being men.

We can call-out negative stereotypes without segregation. We can teach without bullying. We can fight homophobia without pitting lesbians against gay men. I think many people in the GC movement are more like me, critical of gender, not necessarily GC/RF.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I endorse pretty much everything you’re saying way more articulately than I could throughout this thread. I don’t subscribe wholesale or outsource my thinking to any ideology. Extremism and divisiveness are a turn off to me. I genuinely want to understand others’ positions and make sense out of them, not engage in posturing while we talk past each other. I think this place has a good balance because there is widespread recognition that a lot of us are coming from different places and have different priorities but there is mutual respect for the ability to have these different perspectives despite our one common belief being that LGB people and our institutions should not be forced into gender identity ideology.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is? Normal for radfems, you mean?

Yes, from what I've seen.

Sorry, I should have clarified: I misread you as implying that misandry is normal in general. I'm unfortunately well aware that it's normal among radfems, lol.

I learned that there is a difference between being gender critical (critical of gender) vs being GenderCritical (RadFem).

Yes, that's very true. But the two are so often conflated that I avoid even calling myself "gender critical" in the non-radfem sense.

I think many people in the GC movement are more like me, critical of gender, not necessarily GC/RF.

I sure hope so. I've interacted with self-described "gender critical" groups on other accounts before, though, and while some people certainly are as you describe-- and I don't want to alienate those people!-- some really are pretty classic radical feminists, many of whom are quite homophobic.

I think there's just not enough awareness of our pro-LGB movement, at least here in the US, for people to realize that there are alternatives to the GC movement. I lurk on TumblrInAction, and it seems like users on there are always surprised when someone mentions pro-LGB sentiment and community.

We can fight homophobia without pitting lesbians against gay men.

Absolutely. And without pitting lesbian women against bisexual people... I know I probably sound like a broken record, but I try hard to call out radical feminist homophobia/biphobia whenever I see it because I think it's an extremely effective way of putting a wedge in LGB communities. Not to mention-- some, but not all, self-described radfem "lesbians" are "political lesbians" and not even actual lesbian women... so they're not helping us, either.

[–]ElectraHeart 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a great video on the topic from a lesbian radfem perspective.

https://youtu.be/eGIC3PvTvEs

[–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I'm disgusted but not surprised.

The most popular comment on the second link:

And radfems are against marriage anyway, as a patriarchal institution, for people of any sexual orientation. Gay people could have worked with radfems to abolish marriage and make civil unions the norm for all. But that's not what the gay lobby fought for. They made their goals straight people's goals, just like some women make their goals men's goals. We default the class of people with structural power instead of impacting the status quo and fighting for meaningful change, fighting for "equality" instead of "liberation".

What privileged straight people. LGB people deserve the same rights as any other human beings. If a straight radfem doesn't want to exercise her right to get legally married to someone she loves, that's her choice. I should be able to have the option, as a homosexual woman, to exercise that same choice. If you want to have a conversation about whether I should get married AFTER I have the option to, cool. But it is manipulative as hell that some straight radfem leaders wanted to use our disadvantaged position as a group lacking rights as leverage to strong-arm us into advocating for their ideological aims.

Straight radfems, ask yourselves this: Do you want LGB people to help you abolish marriage because they genuinely agree that marriage is bad? Or do you just want us to do your heavy lifting for you, regardless of the reality that some of us hold different beliefs than you? If the latter... I encourage you to do some reflecting. You're no better than the TRAs if you just want to use LGB people as your ideology's meatshield.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 10 insightful - 9 fun10 insightful - 8 fun11 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

And radfems are against marriage anyway, as a patriarchal institution, for people of any sexual orientation.

I never got this argument, if two guys are married to each other, do they take turns being the one oppressed by the patriarchy? Or two lesbians? Is the one with the shortest hair the patriarch? This was also the reason alot of the "Queer" Identified lgb gave to be against gay marriage, it must have bled over from the radfems.

Gay people could have worked with radfems to abolish marriage and make civil unions the norm for all.

Does this erase the patriarchy? Your still making a thing like marriage but calling it a union.

[–]julesburm1891 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gay people could have worked with radfems to abolish marriage and make civil unions the norm for all.

I’ve also heard this argument posited by conservatives with it being framed as “well I just think the government needs to get out of marriage.” Frankly, I’m confused by the argument on either side. You’re legally binding two people and their finances together regardless of what you call it. This really just sounds like an argument for people who can’t stand the thought of gays getting married or think they’re too cool for school.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Wrong link friend :) Here's the (ugly) permalink: https://ovarit.com/o/Radfemmery/83074/i-hope-we-all-acknowledge-this-here-3/7a3a880f-b2b5-4ad5-8483-15288861d688#comment-7a3a880f-b2b5-4ad5-8483-15288861d688

I agree with you about the subtle homophobia in this. It starts out phrased and couched in LGB terminology, but it's very much using RF talking points to be homophobic. This user doesn't care what LGB needs are, and is not our ally.

Gay people had no reason to work with RadFems because, among other things, we weren't fighting AGAINST marriage. We were fighting FOR THE ABILITY TO MARRY, what everyone else has the freedom and legal recognition to do.

the framing of surrogacy as a gay rights issue

Surrogacy is 100% a RadFem issue to abolish. No one else cares. If a woman wants to get pregnant, that is her choice. If a woman gets pregnant and wants to have that child for a couple who cannot conceive, her choice. If she gets paid for it, her choice. If she does it out of the goodness of her heart, or because she wanted the child and later realized that was wrong and adopts it out, or because she was subjected to terrible rapey circumstances and is being paid for her silence ... her choice. She has the womb, she makes the decision.

This is a prime example of why RadFems can be our sisters, but we are not the same, and why LGBDropTheT is not a RadFem/GC sub. We have some commonalities, but our needs and goals are different.

[–]SilverWolf 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

If a woman wants to get pregnant, that is her choice. If a woman gets pregnant and wants to have that child for a couple who cannot conceive, her choice. If she gets paid for it, her choice. If she does it out of the goodness of her heart, or because she wanted the child and later realized that was wrong and adopts it out, or because she was subjected to terrible rapey circumstances and is being paid for her silence ... her choice.

Ironically, these people seem to be very anti-choice. No choice to get married, no choice to be a surrogate. Wouldn't surprise me if they didn't want women to have the choice to get an abortion, seems like abortions would be required by them because "being a mother gives in to the patriarchy" or some bullshit like that

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, I was just linking to the overall thread, but thank you! :)

I agree with you about the subtle homophobia in this.

I'm relieved to hear that lol. I worry a lot that in our eagerness to escape one group of oppressors, TRAs, we're running headlong into the arms of another. I know our sub is focused on a bigger threat than radical feminism currently poses to LGB people, but homophobia is homophobia, and it needs to be called out. And I agree with your assessment of radfems' different objectives regarding gay marriage and surrogacy.

I see a lot of LGB detransitioners dive into GC/radfem groups after they detransition... and it makes me really worried. Those detransitioners are people who have already been preyed upon by one cult-like ideology... I worry that they lack the self-esteem and boundary-setting capabilities, such that if they encounter radfem homophobia, they'll just accept it as normal and lose even more self-esteem. I say this, having almost been one of those people myself... that near-miss type of experience has put me on edge about any similar type of ideology. And radical feminism has some pretty significant similarities to transgender ideology. That's sort of where I'm coming from, if that makes sense.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

They made their goals straight people's goals

This comment sounds like some genderist's interpretation of heteronormality. Basically: You should only have the lifestyle I want to have. No, don't get married. Don't start a family. Those are straight people goals. Eventually it'll be- No, don't create a business. Don't own a house. Those are straight people goals. Embrace your servitude queerness by being a lifelong activist for our ideological aims. You don't need marriage rights, money and property. They're just patriarchal institutions of oppression. You'd be a traitor to us and not a true gay if you don't donate everything you own to our causes and have to live on the street like some drifter. But at least you would've embraced your destiny as a token minority by rejecting those terrible hetero-themed life goals.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But at least you would've embraced your destiny as a token minority by rejecting those terrible hetero-themed life goals.

Lol omg you're so right, hahaha. You know, I swear, I knew LGBTQ-identified people (not same sex attracted people) in college who legit had this mentality.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

(Also, I've posted before about radical feminists' homophobia here and here.)

[–]Rage-Xion 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The first op recommends gay youtuber Mr Menno.

[–]DrMantisToboggan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's why I avoid that site like the plague. Many commenters there are no different than radical TRAs.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

From the comments:

Men are disgusting. They just are.

Homophobia is the least of it.

[–]dilsencySame-sex community 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I have a hard time taking that as a personal offense, to be honest. I imagine they're referring to some bad experiences they've had, and not to every man on an individual level.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

it would say can be, not are. If you read enough of it, the "all men" kind will show itself.

[–]julesburm1891 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

We have single toilet unisex bathrooms at my workplace. The experience has left me convinced that a portion of men are not capable of aiming when they pee. That, however, does not mean all men are bad and I’m not really sure how OP reached that conclusion.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I skimmed it because I'm really not into Ovarit but I'm glad the discussions take place there so that they don't take place here. Tbh I saw what appeared to be overwhelming support for distinguishing LGB from T in the comments on the second link. For the first link, holy moly to the proposed teachings. Yea that's the kind of stuff I've come to associate with Ovarit. I'm very much an "OK, but we need to live together in a society" type person. So while I can agree with a lot of the issue-spotting, I'm not into myopic, counterproductive "solutions," which are just as divisive as the policies coming out of queer theory and critical race theory. I do think the thrust of what's being said is misandry with the homophobia only being derivative of that. Like gay men are still men, and by virtue of that they have no virtue. Saying gay men are misogynistic for not being attracted to female bodies is just the flipside of what the TRAs say. As usual, heterosexuals don't understand homosexuality.

[–]stunaep[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In the 2nd one they're talking about opposing same-sex marriage.

[–]szalinskikidproblematic androphile 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think the general consensus on here is that we do not agree with the homophobia in radical feminism, which in itself is not a key component of RF, nor is it a widespread opinion among RFs from my experience. That's shown by the many RF allies on here and in other places. Also, despite of what the people you linked to have to say, it's not the radical feminists right now that are advocating for the medicalization of GNC children, of which many are LGB. It's still the TRAs who actively damage us. I don't know if JKR for example considers herself RF, but she does hang out with them, and she's definitely not homophobic. There's more that unites LGBdroptheT and RF, than there are things that divide us imo.

If this wasn't the case, I'd be worried, too. But in the grand scheme of things, we're allies in our goal to resist gender identity ideology. If angry women use Ovarit to vent - I guess it's their right, and it doesn't affect us. And we have to be honest with ourselves: many of the most fervent TRAs are LGB. If you're a (straight) gender critical feminist online, and your only experiences with gay people is Stonewall, Owen Jones, David Paisley and Katy Montgomerie hurling the most heinous misogynistic trash at you - then you might develop a certain level of wariness regarding "the gays". Add to that everyone's favorite crazy "enby" Ezra Miller who regularly attacks women violently without real repercussions, and I can see it feeding homophobic sentiments. I don't say it's a good thing, I don't say it's the right conclusion, but I can relate to their anger. I'm angry, too.

We've discussed it many times on here: one of the many fears we LGB people have when it comes to gender ideology is that it'll lead to more homophobia in society. Statistics don't lie, the number of our supporters are dwindling. But that's happening all across society, and certainly not just on Ovarit. Gender Ideology and self-proclaimed LGBT activism/organizations are at fault. And I'm more interested in fighting these sources of the new homophobia at the moment.

I hope that the reasonable radfems can see the bigger picture and are in the majority. Homophobia divides us. But being overly concerned and focused on a homophobic subset of radfems (who are not leading the discussion) will divide us, too.

[–]automoderatorHuman-Exclusionary Radical Overlord[M] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

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