all 22 comments

[–][deleted] 21 insightful - 8 fun21 insightful - 7 fun22 insightful - 8 fun -  (0 children)

Ok, then let's make a new term for a woman who is exclusively attracted to women. Let's say, super lesbian? Oh right, they hated when we did that.

[–]julesburm1891 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

The only thing I thought as reading this is about how the author is the type of person who will cause problems wherever they go. They’ll be the one who gets a useless degree (e.g. gender studies) at a private university and think it’s everyone else’s responsibility to pay their loans. They’ll be the one that never stops whining over trifling matters at work and pushes their job duties off on other people. They’re the one that will spend so much time navel gazing, they’ll destroy every relationship around them. And, no matter what, we’ll all hear about it.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You perfectly expressed how I feel about every trans, nb, and queer person. The majority of these people, particularly the older ones, will never have healthy relationships. If they don't move on from this meaningless mogai queer stuff, they won't have any close, meaningful friendships or romantic relationships. Who wants to spend time with someone who wants to use zir or bun pronouns, or who is a man but also a non-man demigirl asexual polysexual abro-romantic whatever? Nobody wants to be around someone who is only concerned with themselves and forces entire communities to bend over backwards for them. I would almost feel sorry for them if they weren't ruining the LGB community, and being incredibly annoying.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The majority of these people, particularly the older ones, will never have healthy relationships.

Okay, I don't think that's realistic. A subset of transitioners, sure. But a lot of kids and young adults sucked into gender identity ideology do so with pressure from peers, or even the adults in their lives. And it's a pretty common experience among people in the general population to make some mistakes that are fueled by peer pressure, while growing up. Doing something dumb when you're young doesn't mean you'll "never have healthy relationships" ever.

The biggest issue with the transgender movement is that many of the kids pressured to transition undergo medical treatment that has irreversible negative health outcomes (loss of reproductive ability, poor bone development, etc.).

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Yes, they can have healthy relationships if they grow out of it, which I believe many of them will, at least the younger ones; the older queers will probably have a harder time adapting, but there is still hope for them. I believe I mentioned that in my comment. If they don't grow out of it, many of them won't. Gender ideology causes a person to be self-centered and, in some cases, abusive, as a result of being taught that everyone wants to hurt you and the self-victimization, which is why they turn into a mob when anyone slightly disagrees with them. Also, messing up their bodies will have an impact on their relationships with themselves and others. If they realize they messed up their bodies that will probably make them a bit angry, and not willing to trust others. If it is a result of peer pressure then yes it's not their fault, but I won't give them a pass when they try to erase LGB people, harass people, and threaten violence.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I believe I mentioned that in my comment.

I didn't get that from reading your comment, which is why I commented about it, but it sounds like we're essentially on the same page; thanks for clarifying. I wanted to highlight that there is hope for people post-transition because some of the LGB people here on this sub have transitioned and detransitioned, or have felt pressured to transition. I myself didn't transition (thank god), but I seriously considered it at one point. Now, knowing what I do, I sorely wish that I had had positive LGB/GNC role models in my life to teach me that it's ok to be a woman who "acts like a guy" in some ways.

I won't give them a pass when they try to erase LGB people, harass people, and threaten violence.

I hear you; I agree. I don't want to downplay the damage done by people who colonize LGB spaces, even if they didn't realize the harm they're doing at the time; they still need to own up to the damage they've done, and I hate to say it but I highly doubt we're ever going to see a proper apology to LGB people from TQ+ adherents. (A similar discussion to this came up on this thread about a detransitioner who claimed to be bisexual but was actually straight; again, even if she didn't intend to talk over LGB voices and harm LGB communities, she did.)

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I'm glad we got it sorted out! I went back and read my original comment again, and I did say it depended on whether they removed the meaningless mogai, queer, and gendy stuff, but my comment could've been clearer. You raised an interesting point about whether or not LGB people will receive an apology from the TQ crowd. I believe queers will quietly leave because the majority of them are simply straight, and the others will eventually switch to calling themselves bi, lesbian, or gay as they gain confidence in themselves; at the very least, we will hear them talk about their "cringy queer phase." The binary trans will eventually just say, "That was just the radicals saying that, not us," or blame nonbinaries entirely. (If and when there is a significant backlash from the gay community as a whole). A lot of nbs, in my opinion, are future transphobes or will just be vocal trans critics, and I fully expect to see a wave of former nb people talking about how they regret transitioning or simply leaving the community in the next 5 years.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

No worries, and me too. :)

The binary trans will eventually just say, "That was just the radicals saying that, not us," or blame nonbinaries entirely.

Yeah, that's true. There is already this sentiment among the "truscum" subgroup of trans-identified people. (Ironically, many of those people are straight and AGP/AAP. Not that it's any better when a gay/bisexual person feels pressured to transition out of internalized homophobia!)

A lot of nbs, in my opinion, are future transphobes or will just be vocal trans critics, and I fully expect to see a wave of former nb people talking about how they regret transitioning or simply leaving the community in the next 5 years.

Yeppp. And I'm inclined to wonder whether a bunch of them might just go switch to a different ideology that denies reality. The post I linked with Helena the formerly-nonbinary-identifying detransitioner is a good example of your prediction.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The truscum vs tucutes debate was what initially piqued my interest in this debate; as a gay person in 2015-2016, it was virtually impossible to ignore. It slowed down a little in 2019, but has recently resumed. I believe there is a growing sentiment in the trans community that they are going too far and that more backlash is on the way. Unfortunately, they will never admit the true problem (hint: mental illness). There is even some conflict starting within the nb community, specifically between those who identify as such due to dysphoria and those who don't or are doing it for euphoria, as well as between they/thems and neo-pronouners. I can also see them realizing that everyone, including their own, hates them because of their tantrums.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There is even some conflict starting within the nb community, specifically between those who identify as such due to dysphoria and those who don't or are doing it for euphoria, as well as between they/thems and neo-pronouners. I can also see them realizing that everyone, including their own, hates them because of their tantrums.

That's really interesting.. are there particular subreddits where I might be able to find more examples of this? It really does seem like the tide is starting to turn, in a lot of ways.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

As far as I know they don't have a specific group name or anything and simply go by transmedicalist, trumed or truscum. Basically any reddit group with "tru" in it you'll find them. I suggest r/truscum, r/trumen, r/trufem, r/honesttransgender, r/truNB.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This person is asking lesbians to allow men in our community, to even take our identity, because if we exclude them we will hurt their feelings. While at the same time stating butch women are males, they aren't, they are just women that dress differently. There is zero reason why a man must have the identity of a lesbian, a lesbian is a woman exclusively attracted to women, that's it. Men aren't allowed with us or our community. If men are allowed to take the identity of lesbian then that would make the word meaningless, which is probably their goal. We cannot defend ourselves or our rights unless we can clearly discuss and explain our identity, as well as our experiences.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Full text for the post:

"A lot of attempts to define lesbianism in a way that includes the gender diversity of lesbians tend to hinge on a supposed lack of maleness) (Eg. “non-men attracted to non-men)

Not only is this bad because it centers lesbianism around maleness, it excludes lesbians who are in some way, shape or form male. This is not uncommon, especially for butch lesbians.

Most male lesbians are nonbinary (genderfluid, bigender, agender, etc.) in some way, but there are many reasons why a binary man might identify with lesbianism! Such as: being a genderqueer binary man, a trans man who still connects with their past lesbian identity, a cis man who still connects with their past trans lesbian identity, someone who is in a gray-area between binary trans man and butch woman/person, etc.

There is no reason for lesbianism to inherently exclude maleness. It ignores the experiences of way too many lesbians to suffice. Male lesbians are important.

(Sorry for not mentioning mspec lesbians, but that wasn’t my focus with this post... And before anyone says: this post in no way claims that you must be attracted to men at all, nor that you must even consider it! I just ask you to be open minded of people who do not share your exact experience while still being under the same label.)"

[–]hufflepuff-poet 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

just ask you to be open minded of people who do not share your exact experience while still being under the same label.

Why should we be included under the same label if we don't have any unifying experiences?! What unifies all "lesbians", if lesbianism includes not only "non-men attracted to non-men", but straight up "cis men" too?!?? Lesbianism is about female homosexuals finding each other and loving each other. It is for no one else, it includes no one else. Stop trying to force your way into our spaces and relationships.

[–]jay-dayGold Star Gay Woman[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you have to erase the unifying experiences, characteristics, and requirements of a community, maybe you don't belong in it? But, of course, they're narcissists, as are many queer, trans and nbs, so everything has to change to accommodate them.

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

So the lesbian label means literally nothing at all whatsoever at this point? Emo is more specific than lesbian at this point

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Emo is more specific than lesbian at this point

Lol that's actually true.

[–]theytookourjerbsXX only. 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah there's people that bought into gender things that thought I was a trans versus lesbian. There's already enough people trying to trans LGB and ASD people (even worse if it's somebody that both like me), and I don't want to be another one that does. I like being on the more masculine side and am comfortable with being a female anyways...

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Always amazes me the extent to which women who have traits/behaviors deemed "traditionally masculine" seem to break people's brains, lol. Same with men who are feminine. Like, no, just because I have some "guy hobbies" doesn't mean I am a guy inside. Why do so many people consider this to be progressive? Lol.

[–]theytookourjerbsXX only. 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right? I don't understand how it's considered progressive either. Maybe it's because MSM said it was then they bought it idk.