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[–]book_hoarder 25 insightful - 2 fun25 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

het relationships are based on the man objectifying the woman

Good lord, is this really how straight girls see their own relationships? No wonder they want to opt out of heterosexuality.

gay relationships seem more pure, innocent, soft, and romantic than het relationships

Jesus Christ, no. Have you seen gay dating apps? There's nothing "soft, innocent, or romantic" about them. Also, while gay relationships may be on a slightly more equal footing, they are just as prone to tumult and messiness as straight relationships. I'm willing to bet that the person who wrote this is no older than 14.

[–]reluctant_commenter 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

het relationships are based on the man objectifying the woman

Good lord, is this really how straight girls see their own relationships? No wonder they want to opt out of heterosexuality.

Not sure what age group you're in, but I'm in my early 20s and I have absolutely been fed this line for years; it seems like all the straight women my age (or even somewhat older) seem to believe this. I think it's worth observing and talking about how men objectify women... but sometimes I hear people talk about this topic in a way that seems a little defeatist, as if they believe that no matter what, all men will act like that and thus these women have a lot of negative feelings about being straight. It may sound crazy but that's what I've observed among a surprising number of my friends.

[–]book_hoarder 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm in my early 30s, so maybe it's a bit different for my age group because we didn't grow up with porn being as easy to access as it is now. There use to be some risk involved in looking at porn, as most sites required payment and those that didn't were likely to give your computer a nasty virus. Maybe that's changed with the younger generation and the uninhibited porn access they seem to have. At least from the outside looking in, it seems like girls and women are under more pressure now to imitate what guys see in pornography, which is horrifying in and of itself. I do thank my lucky stars sometimes that I'm not a heterosexual and have a partner who neither watches porn nor expects me to reenact it for them. I can imagine how being constantly subjected to this expectation from men, a woman might get the impression that objectification is an integral part of heterosexual relationships.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I mean this person's whole post is basically female objectification of men which in large is coming from MLM pornography or erotica. The whole soft gay boi who is pure and innocent is literally a running trope because plenty of women see gay men as less of a threat to them. It's just fantasy and when it's applied to real people dehumanizing.

So to bring up this is a result of straight male objectification to me is putting the blame on the wrong foot. Plenty of sexualization within media will hyper focus on very base levels of attraction that may "objectify" another person. The problem is that we have a generation that is becoming increasingly antisocial and is looking more and more towards erotic or pornography to deal with a lack of intimacy and other issues like depression.

As someone who is younger in their early/mid 20s I can understand that to some degree it was easier for me personally to find it. Pornography can also be useful in exploring how you feel especially if you are more used to a sexually repressed life or society. It is safer too. The problem is that most of it is incredibly exaggerated and doesn't reflect real life. How satisfying and quick it is can also be blocks in encouraging others to go outside and actually talk to people and develop fulfilling relationships. The fact it is safer is also part of the problem because there is less risk to do anything else. It can also lead to addiction and over consumption.

Plenty of trans people attempt to transition because they feel a lack of intimacy in both sexes and they think through usually erotica they consume the other side has it better or these idealized or fetishized interactions represent reality. The reason they think that is because a lot of these people don't socialize much. It's that simple. I would not be shocked if the person in question doesn't have much of a social life outside of what she does online.

It's less objectification is more prevalent in hetro relationships recently and more people are trying to pursue fantasy. It's not like gay/bi guys aren't looking for dudes that fit certain physical traits or fulfill certain fantasies. Lots of people aren't going to see you purely for who you are they are going to desire some physical assets. She isn't looking for a gay man though she is looking for her husbando she found in a yaoi manga that will validate her. Today it's easier than ever before to basically deny reality and get yourself lost in endless day dreaming.

[–]book_hoarder 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I mean this person's whole post is basically female objectification of men which in large is coming from MLM pornography or erotica. The whole soft gay boi who is pure and innocent is literally a running trope because plenty of women see gay men as less of a threat to them. It's just fantasy and when it's applied to real people dehumanizing.

True, I agree that it's objectifying and dehumanizing. However, the major difference between men objectifying women and women objectifying men, is that the former can lead to some pretty devastating real-life consequences, like rape, murder, and prostitution, while this is rarely true in reverse. I'm aware that it's annoying to have some yaoi-obsessed woman trying to shoe-horn her way into a gay relationship or harassing gay men on a gay-specific Reddit subs (all the lesbian-only subs have been banned already for daring to assert their boundaries in the same way), but for as irritating it might be, most gay men will never fear for their lives in the face of an angry fujoshi.

So to bring up this is a result of straight male objectification to me is putting the blame on the wrong foot

You might think so, but I can't help but see a connection between the proliferation of violent pornography, the normalization of kinky/degrading/painful sex acts, and the increasing number of women and young girls opting out of womanhood/heterosexuality. Women do tend to see gay men as "softer," which is clearly misinformed and based on offensive stereotypes, but it is also why some end up with the misguided view that they will be treated better in a relationship "as a gay man" than they would as a woman in a heterosexual relationship.

The problem is that we have a generation that is becoming increasingly antisocial and is looking more and more towards erotic or pornography to deal with a lack of intimacy and other issues like depression.

Agreed.

Pornography can also be useful in exploring how you feel especially if you are more used to a sexually repressed life or society. It is safer too.

Safer for whom, exactly? Not for the women involved in it. Not for the women and girls trafficked into it. Not for the people who have to endure increasingly violent, painful, humiliating sex for the sake of covering rent, then have those images distributed as widely as possible without any means of retracting them. For as annoying as fujoshis might be, at least most of the porn they indulge in is written or animated and doesn't involve living, breathing human beings.

As for the rest of your comment, I agree 100%.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In terms of sure consequences fine no one is saying women don't in large experience most violent sexual crimes. I am just saying to me this a bit off topic when we are talking about how FTMs are objectifying gay men or saying this has anything to do with some change in heterosexuality compared to in the past. This wasn't a post about who suffers more.

The second comment again I don't know where you are getting that women as a whole are opting out of womanhood/heterosexuality. People online make up a minuscule part of the population. When I go outside and not online the girls I talk to most are dating guys or are married. I mean even online I see tons of those relationships. The amount of people that are GNC as women I only really see at my university campus and literally no where else. Might just be where I live but still women aren't opting of heterosexuality they are opting out of relationships entirely and living in fantasy. Men are also doing the same if not at higher rates. Those that actually get into relationships the vast majority are hetrosexual. I mean even on here we have tons of GNC guys and girls pretending to be gay but are still hetro.

I mean it's just anecdotal I have talked to dudes who feel the same way as bi guys or bi curious thinking they should see if men would be better off for them. I would argue men having sex with men (ignoring the trans issue) had way more stigma even a decade ago than I would argue today. At least it felt that way for me as a teen. As a result more guys are open and subcultures have become more popular. That doesn't mean men are abandoning heterosexuality in large. Gay acceptance within the West at least and online has probably made it a bit easier for people to be public about their preference or experimentation but in large the population still orientates to hetro relationships.

To deal with porn the connection you are making ignores plenty of women who consensually want to be part of acts such as that. 50 Shades of Grey was not written or consumed by men. It also ignores that pornography in some studies have been found to reduce sexual aggression. Is there likely harmful effects of addiction and twisting sexual expectations yes but it's a heavily contested topic and I wouldn't know the degree it does. It's not like sexually repressive societies where porn is banned are better off. Plus sure some addicted FTM fujos are attracted to the soft boy aesthetic plenty are deeply addicted to porn they found of their own volition some of which is pretty violent (I have been around yaoi spaces occasionally enough). Men do consume more of it but this does ignore how these "violent" depictions are often still within porn/erotica largely consumed and made by women.

Finally I mean pornography doesn't just mean professional porn stars or people forced into prostitution either due to human trafficking or poverty. There is more amateur and women controlled porn which now is an increasing factor due to stuff like Only Fans. I mean you just mentioned drawn porn which again is pretty much the definition of safe at least for the creator. Of course we have addictions and that does contribute to these over idealized fantasies trans people in general have. Though again it's a result of an increasing lack of socialization in my personal opinion.

Personally I see porn as vice but it's vice like any other such as gambling, alcohol, recreational drugs or fatty foods. Inherently in small doses it's not harmful but as social isolation increases people are becoming too infatuated with these things to fill holes/failings in their lives. They all give you quick kicks of pleasure. As with all of these vices you go after the obviously exploitative/harmful stuff (drinking age, human trafficking ,restrictions of gambling, banning lethal or highly addictive drugs) the rest you have to just encourage moderation and try to aim at other problems that lead people to abuse these vices in the first place. You never will effectively ban any of this at the end of the day.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

At least from the outside looking in, it seems like girls and women are under more pressure now to imitate what guys see in pornography, which is horrifying in and of itself.

That's my sense as well, and I agree, it's horrifying.

I can imagine how being constantly subjected to this expectation from men, a woman might get the impression that objectification is an integral part of heterosexual relationships.

Yeahh.. it's so sad. Like you said, I also sometimes feel grateful, because of things like this, that I'm gay.