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[–]reluctant_commenter 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Gonna have to disagree about starting in with AGP. This only works for some people. Many people have too much of a knee-jerk reaction to think critically about this topic (edit: if they've never heard of it before and you're throwing it at them out of nowhere; not that it's impossible for them to).

I've had some luck talking to a few people about TQ-driven homophobia, and here's how I start in:

  • Talk about the "cotton ceiling" topic. It's a homophobic idea: "Lesbians should be ashamed of themselves for not wanting to date someone with a dick." Wait, what? is the reaction of most straight people to that. It's an idea that is UBIQUITOUS in LGBTQ+ communities... if trans people are so proud of their "cotton ceiling" idea, then why don't we bring that out into the light? Most people-- most decent people-- can understand why that idea would be hurtful and upsetting to a lesbian woman. If they're straight, I would say to them (for example): "You're a straight man; what if I told you you're a bad person if you don't want to date a transwoman who has a dick?" They get the picture at that point. Framing it from their perspective goes a long way, in my opinion.

  • Show examples of LGBTQ+ organizations that praise the "cotton ceiling" topic. At this point, the person you're talking to might be skeptical: "Are you sure this isn't just a few crazy people on the internet who say this? Surely no one actually believes this." Unfortunately, they do. Here's a list of LGBTQ+ news outlets, many of them well-known, that shame LGB people for being same-sex attracted. Some of these are fairly well-known, too-- e.g. The Advocate and Out Magazine. I explain to them, "This is why I don't consider myself to be a part of the LGBTQ+ community; LGBTQ+ groups can be really homophobic."

  • Talk about how this issue has impacted YOUR life. My examples: This has impacted my life because..

  1. It makes me feel depressed to hear so many people shaming me for my sexual orientation, which is something I didn't even choose and can do nothing about-- they're shaming me for something that's not my fault. (Some people might say "just ignore it," but it's hard to when a) this message is EVERYWHERE on LGBTQ+ social media and b) I was shamed for my sexual orientation growing up by right-wingers, so it's an old wound being reopened anyway.)

  2. I have started to avoid coming out to people, and hide my sexuality more often, around people who I know are big supporters of the LGBTQ+ community, because those people likely believe this "cotton ceiling" thing and I'm not trying to start a fight with every person in the LGBTQ+ community. Research shows that people who feel pressured to stay in the closet have worse mental health outcomes.

  3. It has made me avoid using dating apps-- which are filled with people who believe in the "cotton ceiling" and some gay women even get banned from them for not wanting to date transwomen. So that means it's way harder for me to find potential romantic partners.

Those are just the most pertinent examples. It sucks.

Anyway, there's (the start of) my own guide to telling people about LGBTQ+ communities' homophobia, lol. Maybe I'll make a longer post about this..

edit: And there are other routes of discussion you could take, too, if you're a gay man or bisexual. I'll think of some more to write about and organize them. The child-transing is definitely one. And the Keira Bell case-- lots of points about that.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I totally agree with you. And especially agree that AGP isn’t something you can start with for woke people, especially without real life examples. Even though not that many years ago it was common knowledge that male crossdressing (excluding drag) was erotic in nature. Starting with AGP gets people immediately defensive because you end up sounding like you’re fanatical and shaming because unfortunately truth is stranger than fiction. And when AGP does come up it’s important to talk in fact-based terms and about consequences. You want to avoid giving someone the sense you’re fearmongering. And it’s important to highlight “central outliers” because the natural response will be “well that’s just a few bad apples.” So you have to highlight the “bad apples” that are prominent and central within trans activism. It shows that this isn’t an issue about where we’re overly concerned with just extreme examples. And if the conversation goes down that route you have to be prepared to show “yes this actually happens” and highlight examples like Wi Spa and women being raped in prison where there were dire consequences that much be acknowledged, whether extreme cases or not.

It’s important to remember we are talking about human beings and one of the problems of trans activism is that it doesn’t even serve the people who it purports to care about. Complication rates in surgery, lack of follow-ups, the pitfalls of affirmation only, and predatory men with dubious claims of trans identification taking advantage of self-ID are key here.

Additionally, if you’re bringing up incidents, it’s a good idea to focus on ones that show the conflict with the rights of other vulnerable people and that there are other interested parties/stakeholders who have not been given a voice and instead turned into villains. Liberal media has made it so that top teenage female athletes are suddenly villains with no legitimate interests in their own sports or college and professional careers. That’s insane. Female prisoners and women in rape crisis shelters have been treated similarly.

Another possible discussion is the “suicide” topic. The statistics are easily proven as bogus and a lot of other groups of people/psychiatric conditions have a higher or comparable suicide rate including schizophrenics.

[–]Femaleisnthateful 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The autogynephelia argument is a tricky one to make unless you have real life examples to point to. Otherwise, it's easier for someone to dismiss it as 'transphobia'. After all, it's difficult to get a trans person to admit to being an autogynephile.

[–]reluctant_commenter 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I agree. There are so many other better topics to start with. It's necessary to bring up eventually, because it's really the why of so much of the transgender rights movement's current state. But it's so obscure/taboo that it's honestly just easier to start with more relatable facets of the issue.

[–]SerpensInferna 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I also agree. I was trying to explain this to my cousin (still on the Liberal train to full on ClownWorld unfortunately) and she refused to believe me about autogynephelia. Looked at me like I was crazy and flat out said "That's not true." So since then I've been trying to figure out a better place to work it in, since it's unavoidable when discussing the state of the trans movement.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Now this is excellent.