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[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but I really wish gay rights activists hadn't yoked themselves to the immutability argument. Whether we are born this way or not is an interesting scientific question but it ultimately doesn't serve us politically. The best, simplest argument for equal treatment regardless of sexual orientation is an appeal to (classical) liberalism: if it doesn't hurt anyone or infringe on others' rights, allow it, and if so, don't.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, highlighting the distinction that homosexuality between consenting adults is okay because adults can make their own decisions, while children are incapable of processing sexuality so sex with them should be illegal.

[–]Virginia_Plain 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I am "born this way" as someone on the autism spectrum, but that isn't what links me to the gay community. Being gay links me to the gay community. There are some people who want "neurodivergence" to be inherently "queer," but that's crap. There are plenty of heterosexual people with autism and other conditions. Why should they suddenly be called "queer" against their will.

People are "born this way" for a lot of things.

I agree with you that the gay rights movement has built a lot of its foundation on pat sayings ("Love is Love!!!!"). Initially it was effective at getting a lot of people to come around, but it left so much open space, so much vagueness (things that queer theory people are super fond of) that it was ripe for exploitation.

[–]motss-pb 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think the immutability argument is still important. I certainly don't want to be subjected to conversion therapy just because people think conversion is possible. I also don't want homosexuality to be misunderstood as a choice because people assign moral values to choices. It should be understood for what it is - an innate immutable quality that causes no harm.

I don't know to what extent pedophilia is innate or immutable, but the fact that it causes harm is what sets it apart from sexual orientation. It is a paraphilia, not a sexual orientation. Pedo activists and homophobes alike are both motivated to blur the lines between sexual orientation and paraphilia, even though the difference is obvious.

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't know to what extent pedophilia is innate or immutable, but the fact that it causes harm is what sets it apart from sexual orientation.

Our only disagreement here is that I think this is all that matters, from a legal/utilitarian/messaging perspective. In a liberal paradigm (and just to be super clear here since these terms are all muddied now, I mean liberal as opposed to authoritarian, not conservative) it doesn't matter whether something is a choice or not, or how scandalized people are by another person's choice. All that matters is whether actions cause direct material harm and infringe on another person's rights. I believe this renders forced conversion therapy a moot threat, too, because that is an infringement on your rights, for which you committed no previous infringement of your own.

I also don't want homosexuality to be misunderstood as a choice because people assign moral values to choices.

They still do, though. The far right wants us to suck it up and make more white babies for the ethnostate (unless you're not white, in which case they want you deported or genocided, but that's another topic). The religious people want us to either stay celibate or get married/have kids with an opposite sex partner anyway, because they see homosexuality like any other sinful temptation that can and should be resisted. In both cases, our innate attraction, our desires, are beside the point; the expectation is that we align our actions with the collective ideal.

[–]motss-pb 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

it doesn't matter whether something is a choice or not

I think when you depict homosexuality as a choice, you invite the homosexuality = bigotry argument. Why can't lesbians simply choose to like dick? Choices can be influenced by bigotry. Even if all that matters is whether harm is caused or not, we now have a debate over whether homosexuality is inherently harmful (i.e. the TRA argument of how same-sex attraction is bigotry)

[–]onenaivecanary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right. Also, a LOT of us tried to live as heterosexuals until we couldn't anymore. Whether you went on some opposite-sex dates as a teen or were married for a decade. Knowing that you were actually trying to fight nature the whole time makes it all make sense (as opposed to trying to convince yourself that the next sex position or bottle of lube might just be the magical solution that makes you normal). The TRA "unlearn your preferences" line horrifies me, not because I can't imagine living through radical changes in self-image or lifestyle (I've gone through at least two or three in the last decade. It's not fun, but you live through it) but because I know from experience that this IS NOT POSSIBLE.

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well in that case no one except a non-monogamous pansexual open to an infinite amount of partners, regardless of whether or not they are attracted to them, can escape the bigotry accusation. It's too ridiculous to hold water when taken to its natural conclusion. There's also the issue of "Why can't you?" vs "Why should I have to?" I'm wearing a gray shirt today. Why can't I just wear a yellow one? The fact is that I didn't want to, and that's reason enough.