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[–]CaptainMooseEx-Bathhouse Employee 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

If bisexual is made into a separate label, then only the Kinsey 6's (exclusively gay men) would be gay. This would define a gay man negatively, as being incapable of having sex with a woman. Many people believe this, but it is false. Yes to bisexuality in practice. No to making it a separate category.

I'm incapable of achieving or maintaining an erection for a woman. I am incapable of enthusiastically consenting to a woman. I absolutely need that label of gay to separate me from bisexual men who want to muddy the waters of the boundaries I try and set while navigating a world that is primarily heterosexual where half the population is woman.

[–]Dromedary 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I thought that was a very odd and unsupportable thing - gay men are less likely to fail sexual performance of intercourse with women than straight men? I really wonder where the hell he got that idea.

But it's a good read overall, with lots of fine interesting points. I liked this:
"Q is for Queer

Queer is so obviously wrong, that arguing against it is almost demeaning. Here we have a word that was and still is one of the most hateful in the American language. “Dirty queer” is what many gay men heard as they were being beaten to death. Although “queer theorists” talk of “reclaiming” the word, this is impossible, since it never belonged to us in the first place; it was always the word of our enemies."

[–]joogabahGay shows the way[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I'm incapable of sexual attraction to women too. But his argument as a general trend is true. Most men have varying degrees of bisexuality or at least some experience with the opposite sex. I personally believe it to be this way because in humans, sexuality is learned (the way a native language is learned - not chosen, and not changeable later), and one cannot be alienated from one's own form the way one can be from that of the opposite sex. All men have a homoerotic component to their sexuality because they are male themselves. Not all men have a heteroerotic component tho (but they are a minority). I think this may be something all males go through in childhood and adolescence (an emergent opposite sex attraction based on a foundational same sex attraction). And acquiring an attraction to females doesn't negate an attraction to males. This is heresy to the "born that way" genetic bio-gay crowd, but it can't be genetic because there are entire civilizations that celebrate and institutionalize homosexuality as the highest form of love. There are economic determinants that made homosexuality criminal during industrialization. It's all about not upsetting an organization of roles for profitable production and reproduction of human labor power. Straight people are straight because society will ostracize and punish you for heresy and disobedience.

[–]7874 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

it can't be genetic because there are entire civilizations that celebrate and institutionalize homosexuality as the highest form of love

That doesn't mean it isn't genetic. Also what civilizations?

Sexuality isn't "learned" and there is no proof of that.

However, I do agree that a lot more people are bisexual than most people think. I personally think that over 50% of the population is bisexual, meaning that the majority of people who call themselves heterosexual are actually bi. True heterosexuals seem to be rare, like homosexuals.

Straight people are straight because society will ostracize and punish you for heresy and disobedience.

No, but that's why the majority of masculine bi men/feminine bi women don't come out.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Ancient Sparta and Sambia come to mind.

If sexuality isn't learned, then why the enormous effort to steer it into heterosexuality? If homosexuality is just a small minority on the fringes, why would it be such a central point of contention? Why do conservatives (who do not believe it is genetic) fear its spread to such a degree?

If sexuality isn't "learned" then why do we have sex ed, and why is it always claimed that gay men learn about sex via pornography? (Animals have sex on instinct without any instruction or mimicking necessary, and they cannot help but respond to the appropriate cues - they cannot choose not to reproduce the way people can). Human sexuality is vastly more complex and varied and stylized (with fashions and trends like other human activity).

If it isn't learned, how can this be possible:

https://web.archive.org/web/20040609102548/http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_957945.html "Childless couple told to try sex A German couple who went to a fertility clinic after eight years of marriage have found out why they are still childless - they weren't having sex. The University Clinic of Lubek said they had never heard of a case like it after examining the couple who went to see them last month for fertility tests. Doctors subjected them to a series of examinations and found they were both apparently fertile, and should have had no trouble conceiving. A clinic spokesman said: "When we asked them how often they had had sex, they looked blank, and said: "What do you mean?". "We are not talking retarded people here, but a couple who were brought up in a religious environment who were simply unaware, after eight years of marriage, of the physical requirements necessary to procreate." The 30-year-old wife and her 36-year-old husband are now being given sex therapy lessons while the university clinic undertakes a study to try to find out if there are more couples with a similar lack of sex education."

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

You're conflating the act of having sex with the motive to do so, as well as the reasons why desire for certain things exist.

Humans are mammals, and like other mammals, we'll eventually figure natural sex out - HOW to actually have sex is learned. Even dogs sometimes have to be guided to figure that out the first time, no biggie. It's natural and normal. Our body parts exists and we aren't given a handbook at birth how to use them.

But then look at incentive. How to enjoy sex, and look forward to it, is learned. Bodies react differently, regardless of our sexual organs. Enjoyment or repulsion of sex with certain movements or types of people can be learned, and even fetishes can be. That's also the basis of conversion therapy, that our human brains can be trained and guided in certain directions.

Orientation though, that's a base foundation. It's different than incentive or anything learned or trained. Strip away all the feel-good stuff, and you get to nature instead of nurture. Who or what or where we as individuals, regardless of all the rest of things piled on us, are geared towards. I personally think all of these things work in tandem with our species, with sometimes one being stronger than the other for specific individuals.

That childless German couple didn't know how to perform the act of sex, and clearly didn't even know it could be something enjoyable. They never experienced nature, and were incentivized/nurtured against it and anything that could come after it. I'd be really interested to find out the results of their sex therapy lessons, and if either of them are attracted to each other or anyone else.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I'm highly skeptical that anyone has to show dogs how to do it. They routinely engage in mounting behaviors in a stereotyped way that doesn't at all look voluntary but completely instinctive. They cannot choose not to reproduce and avoid sex for life, the way human beings most certainly can (we are the only species that can). I assert that orientation in humans is learned. Pleasure and arousal are biological, but how that gets oriented is conditioned by early masturbatory fantasies. I assert that since all masturbation involves one's own form, there is a natural tendency for homosexual desire, and that civilization knows this and must fight it and use cultural, institutional enforcement to ensure the reproduction of the species. To the extent that an individual never bothers to fantasize about the opposite sex early in life, that possibility wanes as time goes on. It's like learning a native language. It isn't chosen and it isn't changeable but it is completely learned. Gender nonconformity makes opposite sex attraction less likely to the extent that heterosexuality is constructed in a gendered way. Nonconformity upsets this highly scripted way of relating. This is why liberation from the sexual division of labor and sex role stereotypes is contemporary with an expanding awareness of and acceptance of homosexuality in a potentially egalitarian form.

Finally, I am aware there is a political motivation to insist that homosexuality is unchosen, but I believe this to be a form of self hatred. I never liked it when I would hear people say "why would I choose this"? It is as if one is off the hook morally if they don't choose it. I dislike the implication in this framework that there is something negative or degrading about homosexual desire and that only complete lack of choice can justify it. Gay is good. There is nothing wrong with it and if someone were to choose it blatantly they would in no way be immoral. Straight, to the extent it is based on the subordination and objectification of women and the militarization of men, may be bad. Gay shows the way. That's old school liberation. It shows the way for everyone, not some fringe minority. Same sex desire is universal, even if opposite sex desire is not. In straight people it is just sublimated. Gay shows the way out of the inequality of heterosexuality, and this is why it is politically dangerous and opposed and so closely linked with women's lib. Besides, being born that way doesn't save anyone from the Nazis. There is no political cover in that.

Walt Whitman: "Intense and loving comradeship, the personal and passionate attachment of man to man — which, hard to define, underlies the lessons and ideals of the profound saviours of every land and age, and which seems to promise, when thoroughly developed, cultivated, and recognized in manners and literature, the most substantial hope and safety of the future of these states will then be fully expressed. It is to the development, identification and general prevalence of that fervid comradeship (the adhesive love, at least rivaling the amative love [i.e. heterosexual love; the terms homosexual and heterosexual had not yet been coined] hitherto possessing imaginative literature, if not going beyond it) that I look for the counter-balance and offset of our materialistic and vulgar American democracy and for the spiritualization thereof. Many will say it is a dream and will not follow my inferences: but I confidentially expect a time when there will be seen running through it like a half-hid warp through all the myriad audible and visible worldly interests of America, threads of manly friendship, fond and loving, pure and sweet, strong and life-long, carried to degrees hitherto unknown, not only giving tone to individual character and making it unprecedentedly emotional, muscular, heroic and refined, but having the deepest relation to general politics. I say democracy infers such loving comradeship as its most inevitable twin or counterpart, without which it will be incomplete, in vain and incapable of perpetuating itself. Something more may be added, for while I am about it, I would make a full confession. I also sent out Leaves of Grass to arouse and set flowing in men's and women's hearts, young and old, endless streams of living, pulsating, terrible, irrepressible yearning, surely more or less down underneath in most human souls this never-satisfied appetite for sympathy and this boundless offering of sympathy — this universal democratic companionship, this old, eternal, yet ever- new exchange of adhesiveness, so fitly emblematic of America — I have given in that book undisguisedly, declaredly, the openest expression. Besides, important as they are in my purpose as emotional expressions for humanity, the special meaning of the "Calamus" cluster of Leaves of Grass, (and more or less running through the book and cropping out in Drumstaps), mainly resides in its political significance. In my opinion, it is by a fervent, accepted development of comradeship, the beautiful and sane affection of man for man, latent in all the young fellows, north and south, east and west, — it is by this I say and by what goes directly and indirectly along with it that the United States of the future, I cannot too often repeat, are to be most effectively welded together, intercalated, anneal'd into a living union."

From the Nazis in 1928: "It is not necessary that you and I live, but it is necessary that the German people live. And it can live if it can fight, for life means fighting. [The] German nation... can only fight if it maintains its masculinity. It can only maintain its masculinity if it exercises discipline, especially in matters of love. Free love and deviance are undisciplined. Therefore, we reject you, as we reject anything which hurts our people. Anyone who even thinks of homosexual love is our enemy. We reject anything which emasculates our people and makes them a plaything for our enemies. ... We therefore reject any form of unnatural sexuality, above all homosexuality, because it robs us of our last chance to liberate our people from the chains of slavery under which they now suffer."

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know why you decided our sub and movement is the place to express hatred and contradictions about sexual orientation, and muse about your own self worth, but I suppose it doesn't matter.

You reveal yourself, so again, we say goodbye.