DiscussionHow many lives has Judith Butler ruined?

submitted by JulienMayfair from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]reluctant_commenter 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

These are mostly obscure academics who nobody outside specifics academic fields read or give a shite about.

They're not obscure in "LGBTQ+" circles, though. And even if the general public doesn't know their names, their actions have still vastly impacted the general public. It's the same reason why people these days will name and talk billionaires they've never heard of, who own giant corporations that influence our daily decisions. Just because we didn't know their names doesn't mean they aren't extremely relevant to talk about.

The ones who people here should be pointing fingers at are the medical and legal industries, also partly STEM and tech corporations.

Who were the ones going on TV in the 50s shilling proto-TRA talking points again?

Who are the ones gaining big money from surgical interventions on healthy people and case lawsuits?

All actors who should be kept in mind, I agree. But I still think it's entirely reasonable to angry at Butler as well. I will admit, even if she hadn't created this homophobic belief system, perhaps some other individual might have. But I am still going to hold her accountable for her actions. And the fact is, almost nobody (outside of this sub) seems to realize or acknowledge how homophobic and otherwise messed up "Queer Theory" is.

Perhaps there should be more content/posts about the money-making aspect of gender identity ideology as well, though. It's important to talk about.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

They're not obscure in "LGBTQ+" circles, though.

And...?

How many wokesters you know have actualy read any of her work? You think they care about a rather obscure academic theory?

It's the same reason why people these days will name and talk billionaires they've never heard of, who own giant corporations that influence our daily decisions. Just because we didn't know their names doesn't mean they aren't extremely relevant to talk about.

The difference is that millionaires have actually the money and influence to disrupt the flow of politics.

Let's be real here: Gender Studies is a barely funded academic field. Hell, people joke about GS graduates working on dead-end jobs all the time, so you really think they have actual power to influence politics? That's quite a paradox.

All actors who should be kept in mind, I agree. But I still think it's entirely reasonable to angry at Butler as well.

The problem is that people here focus way too much on Butler and way too little on the medical and legal industries and their role in the mess we are today.

It's easy to dunk on a single person, but way harder to do the same to institutions who do not have a tangible face.

And the fact is, almost nobody (outside of this sub) seems to realize or acknowledge how homophobic and otherwise messed up "Queer Theory" is.

It's because almost anyone really cares about Queer Theory.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

And...?

And, "LGBTQ+" circles include the entirety of social media that is dominated by "Queer Theory". You know, Tumblr? Reddit? I'm not sure how old you are, perhaps your perspective might differ because of age, but I am in gen Z and I see this stuff referenced on a very regular basis, not only online when I tried to find communities I could relate to regarding my sexual orientation, but among allllllll my friends and peers IRL. They parrot her talking points without even knowing it. Her "obscure" academic theories have infected my generation of LGB people and honestly I'm sick of it lol.

Hell, people joke about GS graduates working on dead-end jobs all the time, so you really think they have actual power to influence politics?

Yet Stonewall, up until this past year, and HRC still, has been raking in cash from the corporations that sign up for all their "gender identity" trainings. There is money in promoting gender identity ideology; whether it actually goes to gender studies major students per se, I am not aware. My guess is that the degrees of students who work at corporations that do these sorts of "training" probably come from a variety of social science degrees.

The problem is that people here focus way too much on Butler and way too little on the medical and legal industries and their role in the mess we are today.

It's easy to dunk on a single person, but way harder to do the same to institutions who do not have a tangible face.

I think that's a fair criticism. What sorts of posts would you like to see on this topic? I like to do longer researched posts with lots of statistics, but those take time. If you have a particular topic you have in mind, I can add it to my list.

I will say though, I also think there's nothing wrong with having a thread for venting, lol.

It's because almost anyone really cares about Queer Theory.

(*no one, I'm assuming you mean? Otherwise I agree, it does seem like a lot of people care about it.) Or because the faceless institutions, like you named, are doing a great job of censoring honest conversation about it...

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

And, "LGBTQ+" circles include the entirety of social media that is dominated by "Queer Theory". You know, Tumblr? Reddit?

People on these platforms don't care about Butler, but about attention and clout chasing.

Most of them don't believe in gender shite because of any theory, but simply because it's trendy and it might afford them some likes/upvotes. That's it.

Her "obscure" academic theories have infected my generation of LGB people and honestly I'm sick of it lol.

Nope.

See my comment above.

Yet Stonewall, up until this past year, and HRC still, has been raking in cash from the corporations that sign up for all their "gender identity" trainings.

Stonewall UK has nothing to do with GS as an academic field or even the main players on said field. They're professional activists who are interested only in their own bottom lines.

My guess is that the degrees of students who work at corporations that do these sorts of "training" probably come from a variety of social science degrees.

Again, and...?

These are literally the bottom feeders of gender shite, not the ones making big money or enforcing legislative chance based on it.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

People on these platforms don't care about Butler, but about attention and clout chasing.

They may not know or care about her, but they do care about her ideas. Because those ideas are how they obtain attention, clout chasing, pressure people into sex in the case of (for example) AGP transwomen, and so on.

See my comment above.

Which I refuted. Let me be more specific, if it might help: Judith Butler's academic theories have infected LGBTQ+ media among my age group. Gender identity beliefs are extremely popular on social media, and social media skews young. You could reasonably argue, "Many young LGB people aren't infected these beliefs, they're just being censored off social media so it only SEEMS like LGB youth believe this stuff." I will admit that's a possibility; I'm one of those people.

The ideology that Judith Butler helped formalize and spread, is the leader of, is the same one that Stonewall's rules go by and that the entirety of "LGBTQ+" social media is run by. You could argue that Judith Butler is not as influential a founder of this belief system as some other people, or that tons of people come up with stupid belief systems and it's really the fault of money-greedy institutions or angry men demanding sex that this belief system took off (as you did argue, and as I acknowledged is an important topic to talk about). However, it makes no logical sense to argue that Stonewall UK has nothing to do with these ideas that came from gender identity ideology leaders such as Judith Butler. They are directly related. I don't believe that she represents everyone in or all of the content taught in the field of gender studies, but I'm referring to her specifically, not gender studies.

I get the impression that we might be using different definitions, here. I have noticed I tend to agree with most of your other comments, though, so I am in inclined to doubt that our lack of agreement here is substantive.

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with you (and with both of you, in a way). Judith Butler is not the public face of this movement. I'd be more than willing to bet actual dollars on most reddit/twitter/tumblr users not even being familiar with Butler's name let alone her published works. But her ideas have absolutely saturated the culture, particularly in younger demographics.