all 27 comments

[–]julesburm1891 29 insightful - 1 fun29 insightful - 0 fun30 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

  1. As a native Missourian, I can assure you that the teacher insisting on hanging a pride flag in Neosho is an attention stunt. (It is probably the most conservative town in a very conservative state. They tried to auction off an AR-15 at a back-to-school event a couple of years ago, if that tells you anything.) Hanging the flag there is on par with being in Portland and hanging an “All Lives Matter” sign in a classroom. You know what you’re doing and what the reaction will be. Don’t play dumb.

  2. This may be unpopular, but I agree that the pride flag doesn’t have a place in schools. Hear me out. With both TQ+ crazy and shitty LGB activism over the past decade, the flag (unfortunately) doesn’t just mean gay pride anymore. It’s taken on a political connotation in American society because it’s now everywhere at every left-wing event. Even if the teacher had completely pure intentions, I understand how parents, administration, and students could look at it as see “ACAB,” “yay liberals,” “America sucks,” and/or a bunch of SJW lunacy instead of seeing “it’s okay to be gay.” The fact that our flag has been hijacked for a political prop makes me see red. As mad as I am, I do feel like something that’s taken on political meaning doesn’t belong in a classroom. We should keep things as neutral as possible to create a space conducive for everyone to learn.

  3. All that being said, I’m not 100% certain I’m in agreement with a pride flag (in its pure meaning) in a school at all. Should teachers be able to be open about their sexual orientation? Yes. Should teachers be able to discuss homosexuality and bisexuality as a fact of nature? Yes. Should teachers be able to display a pride flag for a sexual orientation? Eh, not sure.

  4. I do agree that there’s some homophobia in the GC movement. Someone (u/MarkJefferson, I think) mentioned here the other day that he thought a lot of “allies” never understood SSA and really just think of it as a fetish. I’ve been thinking about that pretty much ever since and I think he’s hit the nail on the head. There are loads LGB GC people (myself included) and tons of awesome straight GC people. However, I have noticed there are definitely some GC people who seem to quietly think of us as just another fetish and are just content with using us as a pawn in their personal gripes with the trans community. That is incredibly frustrating because we’re already stuck between religious conservatives and liberal homophobes. We don’t need more bullshit homophobia at all, but certainly not in one of the few spaces we’ve left to assert our sexual orientations.

  5. Tangentially related: when I type “pride flag” my keyboard auto recommends the trans flag emoji to me. That’s weird as hell because I have never used that emoji. I have to type “gay pride” to get the rainbow emoji to appear. Is that happening for anyone else?

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

  1. Thank you for explaining the context. I know very little about the state of Missouri (one of the square ones in the middle?) but the Portland 'All Lives Matter' analogy was very clear and I see now why the controversy erupted.

  2. Hard agree. Flags are never politically neutral, however ubiquitous they may appear to be, and wherever they may be displayed. I know in the United States displaying the Stars and Stripes on one's car and outside one's home is more of 'a thing' than it is in the UK, but there are still very much stereotypes around the kind of person who would do so, and what other political beliefs such people might possess (which is to say, the wrong ones). An MP resigned from her shadow cabinet position after tweeting a snide picture of a house bedecked with England flags (🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿) and a white van on the driveway. In the wake of Brexit, too, anyone or anything with Union Jack (🇬🇧) or England flag branding is seen to be pandering to racist, xenophobic Brexit voters, and such people are often called 'flag-shaggers'. It is an irony lost on most people that those who throw the term 'flag-shagger' around with most relish often have an EU (🇪🇺) or pride flag in their Twitter Bio.

  3. It's tricky. While I believe that teachers shouldn't have to be closeted about their sexuality, I firmly believe that teachers' personal lives should be left at the school gates, whatever form they might take. I don't need to hear about Miss White's divorce, or Mr Lewis's problems with his son, any more than I need to hear about Mr Wallis's woke credentials. Shut up and tell me about Churchill. (Or Robert E Lee or whoever)

  4. I haven't really seen much homophobia within the GC 'movement' but outside this forum I don't really engage with the 'movement' or use social media. I don't use Reddit or Twitter or Instagram of what have you, but I have no doubt that there are homophobes lurking.

  5. I was looking for the pride flag emoji to include in a devastatingly witty comment on here, and my usual place for such things is Emojipedia (owned by the same people who own dictionary.com and, consequently, super woke). I typed 'pride' into the search bar, and the trans flag (which is called simply 'Transgender Flag') appears before the pride ('Rainbow Flag') in the list. I won't get my tinfoil hat out just yet but I doubt that was a coincidence.

Edit: Missouri isn't a square one in the middle, but those states are nearby. So, half a point I think.

[–]PatsyStone🚔Bisexual Sheriff 🤠 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Rules are fairly loose in public (meaning government-run) schools in the U.S. with regard to teachers bringing their personal political and social views into the classroom. It varies state to state like it always does, but most places allow teachers to display religious and political symbols within certain parameters (can't be distracting, can't be included in your coursework, can't be hostile to your students' own opposing views.) Texas I think allows teachers to have religious items on their desks only, and on their person as long as it isn't attached to their I.D. badge.

It says nothing good that my immediate thought in this case was to try to remember what the rules are for religious displays 😞

I agree with Jules that this is obviously intended to kick the hornet's nest in this town. Pride flags are associated with a hostile invading culture where I'm from too. Lots of people from more liberal areas move here because our economy is healthier, and people feel a tad colonized. This guy wants to be a martyr.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

On your points…

  1. I believe in freedom of speech. But sometimes people make statements just to get a reaction out of other people.
  2. I also agree with your second point. In fact, for me that flag has become a symbol of Marxism and neoliberalism, both of which are ideologies I strongly oppose. The rainbow flag is more of a red flag whenever I see it.
  3. I agree that teachers should keep their work lives and personal lives separate, and should not promote their orientations, whether they be hetero, homo or bi. I’m all for telling primary school-aged children that some kids have two dads or two mams, and that sometimes two adults of the same sex live together or get married, but that’s as far as it should go. And to be honest, most kids don’t care. I didn’t care about homosexuality until I was 14, when it started to affect me personally, but between the ages of 10 and 14 when I was familiar with it and seen it on the telly I didn’t care about it at all.
  4. GC people can their be for, against or indifferent towards gay rights. Personally, I don’t know any GC people in real life besides myself, my dad and my best friend, and all three of them support gay rights. But the enemy of your enemy is not always your friend, and there are some GC people who think that homosexuality is wrong.
  5. I did just that on my iPad. Whenever I typed "pride flag" the trans flag came up. Apple needs to get their shit together.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a native Missourian, I can assure you that the teacher insisting on hanging a pride flag in Neosho is an attention stunt. (It is probably the most conservative town in a very conservative state. They tried to auction off an AR-15 at a back-to-school event a couple of years ago, if that tells you anything.) Hanging the flag there is on par with being in Portland and hanging an “All Lives Matter” sign in a classroom. You know what you’re doing and what the reaction will be. Don’t play dumb

This is like that cake case which happened a few years ago: their intention was not to simply point out discrimination but to stir up shit, so much so that professional activists and the media were involved with it since day one.

[–]TumbleweedFireflies🍷 your ol' drunk mod 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

To what you bring up in points 2 and 3, I would say the only time it would *maybe* be appropriate is if he were teaching a health and sexuality class - or possibly a history class, but it would have to be a very specific type of curriculum. As an educator, his own personal sexuality and relationships shouldn't matter unless he had a relevant issue to teach (such as being an activist, or learning acceptable intimate boundaries), but even that's a stretch. Work life and personal life need to be separate, or it risks becoming a legal nightmare.

Article: https://archive.ph/mU7vt

He's a DRAMA teacher. He's completely out of bounds here.

I do sorta feel for him though, I don't get the impression he meant anything bad by displaying the flag, I think he probably had good intentions on the surface. But he's young and indoctrinated, and doesn't know how to be a professional. As evidenced by:

"It appears that there is a different set of rules if you are an LGBTQ+ educator," Wallis wrote on Twitter. "Neosho has no mention of gender identity or sexual orientation in their non-discrimination policy, and that is disconcerting enough. Couple that with a policy banning anything that expresses part of me in the classroom, and it makes for a hostile work environment."

He's grasping at concepts he doesn't even understand yet, and is digging himself into a negative employment hole he may not ever be able to climb out of.

[–]JulienMayfair 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

He's a DRAMA teacher. He's completely out of bounds here.

I've studied and taught drama on the literary side. The thing is, there are plenty of ways that sexuality comes into the topic without your having to bring it in via your personal life. Several of the most well-known playwrights of the 20th C. were gay, like Tennessee Williams and Tony Kushner, just to name a couple, and there has long been a gay community tied to the professional theater. You hardly need to bring it in via your personal life as a teacher. It's already there in the material. You just have to teach it honestly.

[–]JulienMayfair 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I read the whole story on the linked site. Salient points: Teacher is 22 years old and resigned after two weeks. And this is in Missouri, not known for its liberal views.

I taught high school for a couple of years, during which I learned it was not what I wanted to do, but I learned some things that probably apply to junior high school, too. As a public school teacher with kids this age, you need to have a professional classroom persona separate from your private life, which, pretty obviously, this guy had no time to develop. You need to establish your professional credibility with the school administration, your faculty colleagues, your students, and their parents. You are there to teach the students, not to make yourself the center of attention.

I'm not saying people have to be closeted, but there are rules of professional decorum that should be observed. It's the price you pay for being a member of the profession.

And of course the story was posted on Fox News where you are not going to get unbiased comments.

[–]Rosefield 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Pride flags don't belong into classrooms. Period.

[–]Criticallacitirc[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"Good. No one needs kids being taught by a teaching showing off about his sexual behaviours. That’s just unnecessary narcissism and I’m glad the school stood up and said “inappropriate”!"

Basically repackaged I don't care if you're gay I just don't want to see it in public.

Homophobia from GC people , TRAs and the religious right. Not looking good.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Good. No one needs kids being taught by a teaching showing off about his sexual behaviours. That’s just unnecessary narcissism and I’m glad the school stood up and said “inappropriate”!"

Basically repackaged I don't care if you're gay I just don't want to see it in public.

Homophobia from GC people , TRAs and the religious right. Not looking good.

Completely agree. While I think the discussions on this sub about the proper place for the Pride flag are interesting and relevant, this is an important point to emphasize, perhaps the main point. From all three ideological groups, too.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good on the school and the community, and shame on the teacher. I am aware that gender critical people can be homophobic, but the teacher was still wrong to show a pride flag in the classroom. Don’t get me wrong, a gay teacher should not have to keep his orientation a secret. It’s not going to upset the pupils if they know he has a husband or male civil partner. And if he has a lisp or a limp wrist that he cannot help or that is just a natural characteristic for him, he shouldn’t have to hide it, although it would serve him to have thick skin because we all know that teenagers love to banter. But pride flags have become a political statement these days, and a lot of people now associate the flag with neoliberalism and left wing authoritarianism, whether we like it or not, so naturally parents are going to be upset by this. Furthermore, homosexuality, heterosexuality and bisexuality should not be promoted to children, not even to teenagers. Yes, teach them about the human reproduction system when they’re 12 or 13, teach them about the legal and social consequences of sex when they’re 14 or 15, and through these lessons acknowledge the existence of and the difference between the three sexual orientations. But that’s it.

[–]censorshipment 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Wait... that's a heterosexual woman identifying as a gay man??? And you're posting this HERE? 🥴😂

[–]Criticallacitirc[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think they're a trans man . Look at these pics, he's a man.

https://twitter.com/MrJWallis/status/969640760705363968?s=20

Also look at the original pic of the flag he had. It's the original one. No way a trans person wouldnt have the "progress" flag or a trans flag. Just a gay dude.

[–]censorshipment 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh, someone in the comments said it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Jason_Bourne634/status/1436806754738704384

And it's hard to tell by looking at his face since he's fat with acne and has no facial hair. People on the RoastMe subreddit would definitely say he looks like a lesbian lol

[–]TumbleweedFireflies🍷 your ol' drunk mod 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That brow ridge, tho. And hairline in the last photo. And the very straight body lines (shoulders, chest-to-waist, etc) and how the fat has settled. I've known some very chubby butches, and none of them ever looked like him, they were always clearly women despite having softer and/or more androgynous features because of weight.

r/RoastMe is meant to be denigrating and hurt people. If a dude is perceived as self-conscious, as any overweight person is automatically assumed to be, the easiest way to get under his skin is to attack his masculinity by calling him a woman. It's misogyny in action towards a man.

[–]MyLongestJourney 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Pride flags shouldn't be in classrooms.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm inclined to agree, but I also agree with OP that a lot of the comments on this post are homophobic...

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Totally agree, there are some homophobic comments in there.

Relevant-- I saw this same twitter account, @ripx4nutmeg, retweeting Ben Schapiro. The person who runs this account works with Graham Linehan on The Glinner Update. I'm not sure if they are just more conservative, but I think the homophobia found in some radfem circles is leaking.

[–]Treeofthoughts 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Where is the subtle homophobia, I only see the overt kind.

A huge chunk of “GC” people are not critical of gender they just want to ensure that 100% congruence between sex and gender. And that includes everyone being heterosexual.

And I totally disagree that gay teachers should be required to be closeted whilst at work.

Talking about my sexual orientation occurs frequently and entirely naturally on a day to day basis. My husband is the most important thing in my life, I’ll not censor him out of my thoughts and conversation for the benefit of others. Straight people do not do this. Why should I.

I am surprised how many people here feel we should be required to act in a totally different manner to straights, I’m not accepting a second class status. I pay the same taxes as everyone else I get the same treatment.

[–]MyLongestJourney 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

There is a difference between not hiding the fact that you are homosexual and married to another man and bringing the pride flag in the classroom.

[–]Treeofthoughts 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I don’t agree there is a great deal of difference.

Would a Stars and Stripes be unreasonable, could you bring in a flag of your home country if you were not born in the USA?

Perhaps all these things are banned in the US in which case it’s fair to not allow anything. But you would have to explain to me why some are ok and others are not.

[–]MyLongestJourney 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If you come from another country,you should respect the host country. I would never bring the Greek flag in a USA classroom.

[–]Treeofthoughts 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Which is why Saint Patrick’s day is not celebrated in the USA ...

You should be able to be proud and open with your background and heritage (including being gay), without it being an issue.

[–]MyLongestJourney 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

1.They bring Irish flags in American classrooms on St Patricks day?

2.Why would you celebrate being gay?

[–]Treeofthoughts 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I doubt it, but it’s not disrespectful to be proud of your heritage.

And why wouldn’t I celebrate being gay? We celebrate a lot of things about ourselves ...

[–]MyLongestJourney 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Flags represent a country,not just a heritage.

I think we should celebrate our achievements,not our natural traits.