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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I hate to say it but, it would be hard to completely destroy all "let's be one big umbrella!" sentiment..

One approach I can see is that people who are presently "allies" of LGBTQ+ get recognized as more of what they generally are: friends. Then, you chop it up into LGB, TQ (the gender crowd, paraphilia-motivated or no,) and the paraphilias that can be acted on with consenting adults. So three groups, roughly. Then, these groups could potentially be "allies" to each other, in the same way that the United States and the Soviet Union were allies in WWII, but they certainly were not friends.

It respects the distinction that already exists between the groups, and sometimes they can come together on a shared issue, and I do believe they have some shared issues.

I think this would be an improvement. I'm not sure exactly what my ideal would be for all this, let alone how to usher it all in. At the end of the day, none of these three groups are going anywhere, and they're always going to be advocating for themselves. They're not going back into the proverbial box any time soon, so I'm thinking... just control the chaos. I certainly want to avoid the screw-ups from one group taking everyone else down with them.

It's like the results of an anti-trust lawsuit. Break it up.

your long comments lmao.

Thanks. =)

Now as I'm writing I'm wondering whether "identity tourism" is perhaps the least-talked-about powerful element in all this madness.

Yeah, it's there, we all know it, but we don't talk about it as such. I wonder, what else is another phenomena of identity tourism that this could be compared and contrasted with? To make that conceptual shift that this recent stuff is merely that in people's minds. Seems like a bit of pernicious human behavior that's baked in. It's just a shame that today there are adults in the wings, who should know better, more than ready to give medical treatments to children. Kids who used to g through a goth or punk phase could just chuck their old clothing, all-black makeup, etc.

I hate to say it but, it would be hard to completely destroy all "let's be one big umbrella!" sentiment...

I'm scratching my head why it's proving so difficult. If one sits down, and looks at the philosophical take of the gay rights movement in the USA, then looks at the philosophical take of gender ideology in the USA, it's plainly obvious that these are not compatible systems of thought. They're actually antithetical to each other. It really is that simple.

There are a lot of currents at play that are trying to put everyone into the same camp, even if I can't quite put my finger on all of them.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No prob :)

I think this would be an improvement.

Same. At the very least, my idea would include a society that recognizes the importance of free speech, and values tolerance of different opinions while condemning violence. Right now, the TQ+ movement is anti-tolerance.

Seems like a bit of pernicious human behavior that's baked in.

Completely agree! I would love to see a documentary on the history of identity tourism, lol. Now I say that I'm sure there's got to be one out there, I've just never thought to Google it.

I'm scratching my head why it's proving so difficult. If one sits down, and looks at the philosophical take of the gay rights movement in the USA, then looks at the philosophical take of gender ideology in the USA, it's plainly obvious that these are not compatible systems of thought. They're actually antithetical to each other. It really is that simple.

That's true, but I guess I was more thinking, It would be difficult to destroy all "let's be one big umbrella!" sentiment simply because diversity of opinion, perspective and ideology is always going to be at play. I think giving ourselves a voice in the mainstream media narratives would be an awesome start towards reaching our goals. I don't think convincing everyone and stamping out all disagreement is a realistic goal, even if the point of disagreement is such that one side IS in fact completely wrong. There are always gonna be some idiots out there who refuse to listen to reason (and who fail to use logic, your point is a logical one and some people just don't buy into that system of thinking, lol). The ultimate goal, I think, should be tolerance... and right now, the LGB are not tolerated by the TQ+, which is why we're here. Our existence as same-sex-attracted people is not tolerated. And it troubles me that "tolerance" is pathologized and condemned by the TQ+, I have even seen "LGBTQ+" pamphlets suggesting that "tolerance is bigotry," no joke.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

your point is a logical one

¯_ (ツ)_/¯

Logic and rationality let me navigate the world without going completely insane. They're very necessary tools to me and my style of cognition. I lean on them pretty heavily.

free speech, and values tolerance of different opinions while condemning violence

Couldn't agree more. It's amazing how this topic especially (gender ideology) has been framed that any dissent is bigotry. It's very authoritarian. They clearly are not armed with much to have others accept their ideology and politics, we know this, so it seems to me they've fallen back on strong-arming. This does not seem like a good strategy for long-term success, especially since the eventual swing back is really going to hit them hard in the backside. This unfortunately smacks of the mental disorder side of the topic, where they're just not in touch with reality. Not the "I have GD and transitioning is a treatment for it, and I'll always be my birth sex" crowd, but the "I literally am the opposite sex" crowd. Getting through to these people is difficult. At the end of the day, we all have to live with each other, and authoritarianism is not the answer to that. Neither is re-organizing our societies around the needs or wants of a small minority.

Shakes fist at sky Damn Enlightenment value systems.

If we could just wrap people back into Enlightenment values, we wouldn't even need to talk about LGBTQ+, it would just sort itself out. Here, we're staring down the specter of postmodern neo-Marxism.

LGBTQ+ in some sense is a proxy issue.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Shakes fist at sky Damn Enlightenment value systems.

If we could just wrap people back into Enlightenment values, we wouldn't even need to talk about LGBTQ+, it would just sort itself out. Here, we're staring down the specter of postmodern neo-Marxism.

I've probably said it a million times on this sub by this point, but I'm a part of the younger generation and I have heard people my age explicitly say, "Rationalism is racist" "Enlightenment values are problematic" (the word is an accusation of bigotry and evil, without explicitly saying so), things like that. It really troubles me. And it's funny, I have come to value logical debate much more since joining Saidit and reading about gender dysphoria.

LGBTQ+ in some sense is a proxy issue.

COMPLETELY agree. I have more recently been reading about the parallels between our issues, and our censorship off of Reddit, and other issues where there is a remarkably similar phenomenon playing out of bannings, use of CP as a weapon to silence and destroy online communities, etc. Race-related topics are just one such area.

Sometimes I worry that we're not looking at a big enough view of the picture. We should be joining hands with people sounding the alarm in the ASD community, with women (although radical feminism can be QUITE homophobic/biphobic, and has a way louder voice than LGB people's right now), and with other minority demographics. That's part of why I was so excited to see this letter signed by a bunch of organizations across demographics! Small progress but still, a step. I'm glad groups such as these are starting to reach out to each other.