DiscussionBi men in gay spaces – examples of constant homophobia, misinformation and undermining our definitions

submitted by lazy-summer-godSuper Gay from (self.LGBDropTheT)

Since the discussion about bisexual men in gay specific spaces was diverted and ridiculed the last time, I want to continue it with specific examples. It's important to me, as I see a very toxic trend of creating taboo when it comes to bisexuals – you can't criticize a small group of them without triggering hysteria that it's rooted in biphobia, hate and bigotry. So let me share my perspective and the types of bisexual men that I have to deal with – for reasons unknown – in my gay space.

Here, a bisexual man explains to me – a gay man – how homosexuality works and how I have to accept that his friend attracted to a trans man is a genuine gay, as some gay men can be attracted to females.

The bisexual guy that I mentioned the last time, who was answering to trans posts and assuring them that he's attracted to trans men without specifying that he's bi did it again, third time in this week.

Another bisexual is openly taunting everyone who notices the problem with bisexual crowd in gay spaces.

A bisexual openly calling gay men "faggots" – which was reported to admins and ignored.

Bisexual men in gay specific spaces are a problem and it needs to be addressed. It would be a problem even if they were behaving somewhat acceptable, but as of lately, they're more and more homophobic.

Before the crowd that likes to be the victims says anything: it doesn't mean that ALL bisexual people are a problem. It also doesn't mean that we should "drop the B", so please, try to limit hysterical reaction and the mentality of making yourself a victim, because I feel lonely and othered in my own gay space and I know this is something lesbians go through in their spaces for similar reasons.

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[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 31 insightful - 2 fun31 insightful - 1 fun32 insightful - 2 fun -  (43 children)

There are bisexual men who are like this, who are unsympathetic towards gay men. But what do these bisexual men have in common? They are TRAs. Made worse by the fact that they are on Reddit. Reddit is a toxic cesspit of stupidity.

I don’t know about you, but if a bisexual man understands biology, I have no problem with him being a guest in gay men’s spaces.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 0 fun28 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yeah, I'd put it this way: if you're in a space for gay men? WHATEVER your sexual orientation, you need to respect that gay men have every right to be precisely that: GAY MEN. And you don't do or say anything that suggests otherwise. The end.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, bisexual men are welcome in gay men’s spaces as long as the focus is on attraction to men, and the gay men are treated with respect. Also, gay men in bisexual men’s spaces should be respectful towards bisexual men who talk about women in those spaces.

In essence, there should be mutual respect between gay men and bisexual men.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

A lot of this can be solved with simple manners.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Exactly. Simple manners.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

So not Reddit.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That’s right.

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 26 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I feel the same way re: bi women in lesbian spaces. As long as they're not TRAs and as long as the discussion stays focused on same sex attraction, I prefer to not exclude them.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I don’t know about you, but if a bisexual man understands biology, I have no problem with him being a guest in gay men’s spaces.

I still do mind that, until I hear one good reason why SPECIFICALLY GAY space (so not some cloudy "men attracted to other men space") should be inclusive of completely different sexual orientation. Considering that you're all eager to defend LGB spaces from other agents attempting a similar invasion, it's hypocritical of you to claim "it's okay" in case of bisexuals.

[–]jim_steak 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Practically speaking, how do you plan to enforce a gay man only space, especially online? I think a lot of the problems you're outlining with bisexual men in gay spaces are related to bi men identifying as gay, and I think, unfortunately, being more strict about only gay men being allowed in spaces bi men want to enter just incentivizes bi men to lie about their sexuality. Maybe having this conversation with bi men and explaining how lying about their sexuality hurts gay men could be helpful on agb?

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

And that's exactly what I have in mind. Askgaybros is unmoderated, so no one should be banned from it, no matter who they are. Bi people need to understand for themselves the value of having their own spaces instead of invading others, which is an act of self-erasure, rooted in the idea that bisexuals are just straight and gay at the same time. And I did convince some bi men to leave AGB, in the spirit of peace and reasonable conversation.

The problem is, many don't want to leave, because they have nowhere else to go. Latching onto gay communities, their own are underdeveloped and empty. It's difficult to banish them to those now and kind of a shitty thing to do, but I do believe it should be done.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I think that would backfire on you in the future, to finally purify your community only for it to wither away do to lack of interest. The men you kick out will likely resent you, regardless of what tone you try to keep with them.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Pity. I don't intend to bend to majority just because I'm a minority. As homosexuals, we have lots of enemies and we certainly won't reach freedom by allowing these enemies to do whatever the fuck they want to our community.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What do you want?

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I keep trying to tell this to the gays and lesbians here who frequently accuse other homosexuals of being bisexual. You are causing the problem you claim to hate. There is more at stake with these identities than just access to a dating pool.

Bisexuals are out in the cold on our own, we don't have a support system. We are also maligned, regardless of who wants to deny it. Exceptions to this exist, but the fear of being cast out or abandoned will lead to people lying.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t have to like bisexuals, but I also don’t have to hate them or exclude them. I set boundaries, but I’m also not an extremist.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't hate bisexuals, but what's the point of having gay space if bisexuals must be let into it? What's even the point of having words and meaning behind them, if we don't respect that, because some people feel not included?

It's exactly the same rhetoric trans men are using to enter our spaces despite being females. We can't call out some of them while allowing others to do whatever the fuck they want.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

To complicate matters, if the opportunity were presented to me under the right circumstances (the biggest hypothetical condition being that I was not in a monogamous relationship), I would consider messing around with a trans-man who had a functional vagina. I don't consider myself meaningfully bisexual, i.e. probably 5.9 on the Kinsey scale. But it would be an opportunity to see what vaginal sex was like while all the other boxes were ticked. I would very likely not be interested in a LTR with a trans-man because I like le coque too much.

But for me the issue is one of consent and personal choice. It's presumptuous to assume that any gay man must consider trans-men as part of their dating pool or even their hookup pool. If some gay men are interested: cool. It has nothing to do with my interest level or that of any other gay man.

[–]thump 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

A man who is interested in hooking up with a transman, but primary forms long term relationships with men is still a bisexual man.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

I would be cautious about telling a person who they are while participating in a forum whose principal focus seems to be criticizing others who are doing the same.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They're right though.

If we start to concede definitions used to describe ourselves and communicate with each other just to not hurt the feelings of some people, then we lose the capability of describing ourselves and comunicate with each other.

The words 'gay' and 'lesbian' aren't just cool social clubs, but political signifiers.

This is not rocket science.

[–]thump 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Same-sex attraction is based on biology. A man occasionally enjoying sex with a female, no matter how much she has altered her body, while mostly dating men is still being a bisexual man. This is one of a very few hardline stances I have, and what I'm sure most here do as well.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 16 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

trans-man who had a functional vagina

lmao!

That's a good joke!

T completely destroys the female reproductive system, even in the short term use.

If your objective is to satiate some bi-curiosity, just go for a women already.

[–]shveya 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

True, the Aidens even complain of vaginal-dryness, and that’s only the tip of the iceberg.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

And this isn't even the worst part yet, as there's whe whole uterus rotting thingy which basicly puts a hard 5 year cap for the hypersectomy.

FtMs may 'pass' better, but the price is high.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Please, stop. I'm the opposite of squeamish, but you're somehow triggering me.

[–]shveya 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I thought about that too, their uteruses (uteri?) falling through their "front holes" seems like something out of "The Fly" (Jeff Goldblum's body pars start rotting off).

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you want to try pussy, go for normal women. If I wanted to see how does ti feel to be penis penetrated, I would go for normal man, not castrated one

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think it's time to remove that "super" from your flair, champ.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

If this guy is bi, every Stacy and Becky on Twitter who haven't been near another woman's pussy in their lives are too.

You can't have it both ways.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

You could try out a vagina if you want, but you’re still having sex with a woman. If it helps you to understand your orientation better, so be it. But if you enjoyed it, you’re bisexual, you may still prefer men but you’re still bi. If you don’t enjoy it, then you know you’re gay.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Do you think we need to sleep with opposite sex to know our orientation?

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

aLL vIrGiNs ArE aSeXuaL!

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

No. Gay people know that they’re gay without having to sleep with the opposite sex. There are people who are confused, and maybe sleeping would help, though I wouldn’t recommend it.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I recommend it. I don't see the problem of fucking the opposite sex if you feel like it and want to get the experience. I don't need it, because I know I'm not into dick. But if I had some doubt I would do it no problem.

[–]TransspeciesUnicornI sexually identify as a mythical sparkly equine 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I would personally not recommend risking pregnancy just for the lulz.

I would also not recommend potentially stringing along a straight person who could develop feelings for you only for you to be like "Oh whoops, guess I'm gay after all."

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

There are condoms and hookup is just genitalia humping for one time. We're not talking marriage. Sex isn't sacred, and if you want the experience you should do it.

[–]TransspeciesUnicornI sexually identify as a mythical sparkly equine 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Condoms aren't foolproof. I knew a chick in high school who was still conceived even though her parents were using a condom AND birth control. Also, it's not entirely uncommon for dudes to intentionally slip condoms off.

And well, if you're a woman, having random hookups with strange men can carry a whole other set of risks. Like they find your dismembered corpse in the woods three weeks later sort of risks.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good point. I know I’m not into women, and not into vagina, but some people don’t know.

[–]thump 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You're missing the point. Sexual attraction is what causes one to be interested in sex with another person.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah I know. There are people who seems to be sure whether they like to have sex with some kind of genitalia before living it.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I don't see what the point of you identifying as bisexual would be. It is not a meaningful Identity for you.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

He can't identify as homosexual, because he will be sending the wrong message that gay men can be somewhat attracted to females. That's redefinition of homosexuality and I'm surprised to see it suggested here, since it's the favorite TRA rhetoric.

[–][deleted] 23 insightful - 3 fun23 insightful - 2 fun24 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Three-quarters of your examples have to do with trans or trans-themed threads. I'm not disagreeing with your general premise, but trans is making everybody cRaZy! Would this problem be evident if it were not for trans? Would lesbian subreddits still exist in a meaningful way if there was not the trans contingent? Would Reddit have women-only subreddits still if it was not for trans?

I know AskGayBros is supposedly some sort of last bastion of sanity on Reddit, but it's still Reddit. Also, AGB is the only place where any meaningful discussion is taking place, probably causing the preponderance of bisexuals. Go look at /r/bisexual and see it's all silly memes.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, Reddit is a toxic place, and AskGayBros still has some level of toxicity. A bisexual man who avoids Reddit like the place is more empathetic towards gay men than a bisexual man on Reddit.

[–]Daddiescummies 20 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Bisexuals need to understand that they are not a systemically marginalized group. The only time a bisexual experiences systemic discrimination is when they are labeled as gay by others and experience homophobia, or when they are in a homosexual relationship. A bisexual in a heterosexual relationship has access to the full privileges granted to heterosexuals.

If you are bisexual, you don't understand the homosexual experience, and you don;t get to speak for us.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

If you are bisexual, you don't understand the homosexual experience, and you don;t get to speak for us.

Well, I certainly wouldn't argue with that. Bisexuals shouldn't speak for homosexuals.

However, that works both ways, you know? Homosexuals shouldn't speak for bisexuals, either. And I'm seeing quite a bit of that here. For example:

Bisexuals need to understand that they are not a systemically marginalized group. The only time a bisexual experiences systemic discrimination is when they are labeled as gay by others and experience homophobia, or when they are in a homosexual relationship. A bisexual in a heterosexual relationship has access to the full privileges granted to heterosexuals.

This is a homosexual speaking for bisexuals; informing us of what we "need to understand", and what our experience is. Which, apparently, YOU know better than we do. And, in your estimation, the only time it doesn't consist of privilege is when we're mistaken for you (i.e., only homophobia really "counts").

This is dismissive and presumptuous. I wouldn't do this to you. Kindly return the favor.

[–]Daddiescummies 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Which, apparently, YOU know better than we do. And, in your estimation, the only time it doesn't consist of privilege is when we're mistaken for you (i.e., only homophobia really "counts").

Bingo. Bisexuals are only marginalized when they are mistaken for homosexual.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Bingo. Bisexuals are only marginalized when they are mistaken for homosexual.

What about being marginalized when you are mistaken for NOT EXISTING AT ALL?

Because that's the default, if you're bisexual. Sexual orientation is assumed to be monosexual by definition; thus, there's no such thing as bisexuality-- it's merely a fiction or delusion-- and therefore no such thing as bisexuals. So we must be either straight or gay. The former, if we're female; the latter, if we're male. We can come out till we're blue in the face, and it usually doesn't matter; we can't possibly be what we say we are. Because that's not real. WE'RE not real.

Think this just might pose a bit of a problem?

So the fact is, we're usually mistaken for gay, or straight. Because what else IS there? And that's just something we have to live with. Constantly being reminded that most people-- including GAY people-- regard us as something on the order of the Tooth Fairy. Only make believe.

That's what biphobia is, basically. And I think that it often flies under gay people's radar, because you're used to being on the alert for homophobia, and this operates somewhat differently. But (to mix my metaphors)... it's still poison.

We also suffer from homophobia, sometimes, of course. But while that's not the constant for us that it is for you... we get good ol' biphobia 24/7.

[–]Daddiescummies 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What about being marginalized when you are mistaken for NOT EXISTING AT ALL?

SO you're either being perceived as heterosexual (which grants privileges in a society where heterosexuality is considered the default and social systems have been structured around it) or homosexual (which you experience oppression because society thinks you're gay).

Bisexuals are not "oppressed" because they are bisexual. They are "oppressed" because heterosexual lizard brains think you're gay.

[–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Bisexuals need to understand that they are not a systemically marginalized group.

I don't think that's accurate. They are marginalized for their same-sex attraction, and also for their higher rates of gender non-conformity, which in turn put them at risk for being transed, especially among children. You could argue that they are less marginalized than LG (I'm not sure I believe that, but you could argue), but there's a lot of evidence to suggest that they are indeed systemically marginalized.

A country that bans "homosexual behavior" doesn't care if you're gay or bisexual, you suffer the consequences either way.

[–]Daddiescummies 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

They are marginalized for their same-sex attraction

They are marginalized for appearing homosexual, not for their bisexuality.

and also for their higher rates of gender non-conformity

Which is a choice they make, not an inherent aspect of identity.

You could argue that they are less marginalized than LG

Because they are

A country that bans "homosexual behavior" doesn't care if you're gay or bisexual, you suffer the consequences either way.

Unless you're a bisexual who avoids same sex partners. Then there is no consequence.

[–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

They are marginalized for their same-sex attraction

They are marginalized for appearing homosexual, not for their bisexuality.

No, in many cases they are marginalized for their same-sex attraction. Many people discriminate on the basis of same-sex attraction, not just homosexuality. For example, the Catholic Church teaches that "same sex attraction is inherently disordered" and they don't care what someone's actual sexual orientation is, e.g. if someone is homosexual vs. bisexual, because they believe that "same-sex attraction can't be a part of a legitimate sexual orientation."

and also for their higher rates of gender non-conformity

Which is a choice they make, not an inherent aspect of identity.

How people present themselves, is a choice; however, (e.g.) being female and having interests, demeanor, personality traits, habits etc. that society calls "for men" or "for boys" is not a choice, so in that respect being GNC is not a choice. I didn't choose to be this way, I just am and I've been like this my whole damn life.

There are some people who like to present as GNC because they are trying to make a political statement, but for many LGB people, they are just being who they naturally are.

Because they are

You're free to think so, but that's a different question than the topic originally posed.

Unless you're a bisexual who avoids same sex partners. Then there is no consequence.

I'm not bisexual, so I can't speak to the experience of someone who's bisexual and only dates the opposite sex. To at least some extent, however, people don't choose who they fall in love with, and they certainly don't choose who they're attracted to, so a bisexual person could still suffer shame from hearing homophobic, "same sex attraction is disgusting/immoral" messages from society even if they're not actually dating the same sex.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

I don't want to fuel any more mess than that post has already brought, but I feel like this is an important conversation.

I've noticed this as well and, many times, I abstain myself from speaking because I feel like my words will be misunderstood and I will be rather attacked of biphobia - this has already happened to me, when I in reality for instance have several times defended the sane bi people in discussions.

I'm fed up of being in silence all the time, constantly afraid of harming someone's fee fee's when no one gives a sht about lesbians (and now, the same problem is arriving with gays as well). I also do notice that some, SOME (not all, again, just to make sure no more people gets triggered) bi people have really absolutely NO clue about what it's like to be homosexual and even worse when they try to lecture us about OUR sexual orientation. Especially if we're talking about bi people who never acted on their same sex attraction or have nearly 0 experience with the same sex. What I feel is that yes, there ARE bi people who truly have no f*cking idea how privileged they are in comparison to us, who don't have any other choice but to face homophobia 24/7. Does this apply to ALL bi people? No. But for a good portion of them? Yes. I would say only bi people with a very strong preference towards the same sex and that ACTUALLY try to act on it (for example, feb fems) can have a clue about what we go through. Or perhaps bi people with a great done of experience with the same sex.

So, thanks for your posts. You've been saying what I feel for months and never had the courage to say it.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I think bisexual women are privileged, but not in the sense of homophobia. I don't think homophobia as problem in the west today, but they're privileged because they're not outcast in an hetero world, because they got way more dating options and possibility of finding a match, making dating way easier and not risk of dying alone or staying single for long stretch of time if they do not want to.It's way easier to be bi and I really wished I were able to being sexually attracted to males. Homosexuality is very limitating in numbers. Also feb fems are favorite to me too, consider them more like lesbians, but only the ones more attracted to female rather than the malehating

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

but they're privileged because they're not outcast in an hetero world

Yes, this exactly. I usually see bi people (not ALLLL) thinking they understand us and thinking their same sex attraction is more than enough when it couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, what makes being homosexual so damn hard several times is precisely the LACK of opposite sex attraction and not necessarily the existence of same sex attraction. I would go even further and say that the HARDEST part of being a lesbian, at least from my experience, is dealing with the lack of attraction for men in such a men centric and heteronormative world. And this is a totally foreign experience for bi women lmao.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Yeah, tha lack of attraction to men is a problem to me, but more like, if I were bisexual I wouldn't never worry about dying alone or something. It would be so easy to find someone. I would prefer women as being with a woman is vastly superior in an sexual, emotional and whole dynamic relatinship way, but I could fall in love with a man, it would give me more way more options, But I just can't. And being so out of the norm isn't really what I needed for my struggling mental health. I've accepted it, but just fucking hate how limitating this whole orientation is.

[–]RaspberryTea 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Ironically, if you're a bi woman but mostly same-sex attracted, that bit of attraction to men can cause its own unique problems. Like wasting years of your life dating men just because it's easier even though deep down, you just want to be with a woman again and can't really picture spending your life with a man.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yeah, but still got more options. It's always better than being limited.

[–]reluctant_commenter 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I don't think homophobia as problem in the west today,

I don't know if I would agree with that, lol. LGB children are being pressure to medically transition at high rates, for one thing. It's just that conditions are even worse in many other parts of the world.

but only the ones more attracted to female rather than the malehating

Agreed lol.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't know if I would agree with that, lol. LGB children are being pressure to medically transition at high rates, for one thing.

Also, this completely disregards the people who live outside of liberal areas, where homophobia is still very much a thing.

[–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yup, that too. And, I would even say within liberal areas, homophobia is still very much a thing-- from so-called progressives' comments, to pockets of conservative homophobic religious people within majority-liberal areas.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I mean not saying homophobia doesnt exist anymore, but it isn't such a big problem like in the past, living in the west. My primary worries about homosexuality don't come from homophobia, which is a thing, but to me not as big to make homosexual relationships significantly hard.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm in the West, and mine come from homophobia. I agree that it was an even bigger problem in the past, though.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree. For homosexual women is worst. Bisexual women who call themselves lesbians and support the queer ideology and the idea that lesbians like dicks are very toxic. I'm not like the lesbians who don't want to date bisexuals or hating them, but some of them can be quite toxic . There is a difference very significant between homosexuality and bisexuality, they cannot get us fully and we cannot get them fully. The unfortunate fact is that homosexuals are significantly less than bi's and that's why they the most even in gay spaces. Sd fact is full homosexuality is super rare because non reproductive

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

I read the comments by the bi guy and i really don’t think the issue is bi guys in gay spaces. As long as they know it’s for same sex and not opposite sex discussions. That said, I have read the bi Reddit’s but I wouldn’t really post in their space.

I think the real problem is the sjw types. The gender ideologist. The ones that believe gender matters and not sex, and that a vagina is a normal part of the male body. This is the nonsense from queer theory that’s infected our community. Its not just bi guys who will lecture us, it will be other gay guys, and even lesbians. They have swallowed the gender ideology whole and we are battling uphill to maintain the old language of sex and not gender attraction. I agree though that a lot of the woke bi don’t get monosexuality and can’t fathom why genitals matter. Or they they think it’s some kind of higher state of being to not care about genitals.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The ones that believe gender matters and not sex, and that a vagina is a normal part of the male body.

The ones that pretend the vagina is a normal part of the male body.

Let's not kid ourselves, only the people on the very deep end of TRA bs legitimately believes this.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Let's not kid ourselves, only the people on the very deep end of TRA bs legitimately believes this.

That's a good point. We really are talking about the extreme end of the gender identity ideology belief system here. Most people I meet in real life, even in a pretty liberal area, would not go so far as to say that.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

some gay men can be attracted to females.

Ok, so if they go with that premise that some gay men are attracted to trans men and other gay men are not attracted to trans men. Do they not see that these are clearly 2 different sexual orientations? They make up new sexual orientations for every weird quirk people have, but they can't see the difference between a guy who likes both males and females and a guy who likes just males?

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do they not see that these are clearly 2 different sexual orientations?

They believe (or profess to believe) that sexual orientation is based on gender identity, so they would say that the gay-identified bi guy is gay, and that the actual gay guy is gay with a genital preference.

I've spent too much time on reddit.

[–]Destresse🇨🇵 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Some argue the gay guy is bisexual since he could be attracted to transwomen 🙃

[–]reluctant_commenter 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Points where I agree with you:

  • It's unfair for bisexuals to demand that they be allowed in communities that are exclusively homosexual, e.g. for gay men.

  • The examples you cited were homophobic.

  • Yes there's a similar phenomenon going on in lesbian spaces.

Points I think you're missing:

  • All of the examples you cited are also TRAs. I think it's worth pointing out that homophobic behavior/beliefs are generalizable to the ideology, but not necessarily to all bisexuals.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, BUT! You did generalize about "all bisexuals" in some of your comments. (I didn't see that in your actual post, though.) Examples:

Your frustration with the situation you described is legitimate, and I think your message is too-- that gay men (and lesbians) SHOULD be able to have their own separate communities, if they want. That isn't said enough on Reddit; we get banned for saying that on Reddit. However, I think your message is being missed by some people because of some generalizations you made.

edit: Also, I'm not sure if you knew but some of the people on that thread were reacting more to a troll user who hates bisexual and has made like 10+ accounts that have gotten banned from this sub. His vitriolic comments probably did not help facilitate reasonable discussion, and also distracted from the point of your post.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The amount of woke bisexuals has honestly gotten out of control. Woke LGs who use platitudes like 'yeah I'm gay and I'd date a transwhatever' aren't as impactful because they'd never act on those words. I'm sure it doesn't feel good to hear LGs say those things, but most of them haven't really thought about what that entails. The ones who delude themselves into thinking they'd be fine with it and go out to date a trans person find out quickly they they can't stay aroused when presented with an opposite sex body after the clothes come off.

Woke bi's though, they follow through. The ones who are chasers can stay aroused and have sex after the clothes come off. They go back and preach about dick to lesbians and about vagina to gay men. It's annoying and you have every right to be frustrated.

I will say though that I agree with others who point out that this more of a TRA thing than a bisexual thing.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The amount of woke bisexuals has honestly gotten out of control.

In my experience, most of them are straight people larping though.

They see bisexuality as an easy way to obtain oppression points to flaunt around, all with minimal risk involved, as they're predominantly straight leaning and tend to not express said identity outside of the internet (yes, even the ones who live in ultra-liberal areas).

[–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In my experience, most of them are straight people larping though.

I COMPLETELY agree.

Like, I seriously think we are underestimating the number of straight people LARPing as bisexual. They LARP as lesbians ("political lesbians") and trans ("I'm trans even though I have no gender dysphoria and have zero interest in transitioning and am not even GNC"), why the hell not LARP as bisexuals? Especially when bisexuality is arguably the easiest to pretend to be; a straight person could just be like "I'm sexually attracted to the opposite sex and I'm only romantically attracted to the same sex, I just like hugging them" I'm not even joking lol I knew someone like this in college. Perhaps this is a Gen-Z-only phenomenon, or it's more common on the internet, but it is real.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

True. And I'm exhausted lol. I do think there are a lot of bisexuals who are drinking the Kool aid though. They don't have as much to lose by adopting TRA rhetoric because the language around bisexuality is already fucked.

[–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Woke LGs who use platitudes like 'yeah I'm gay and I'd date a transwhatever' aren't as impactful because they'd never act on those words. I'm sure it doesn't feel good to hear LGs say those things, but most of them haven't really thought about what that entails.

Ehhh, I would say they're doing a lot of harm too. "Woke in the streets, TERF in the sheets" as the saying goes... I do sympathize with people who say that stuff out of fear, knowing they'd be shunned or bullied if they dared suggest that they have a sexual orientation, or as TRAs put it, a "genital fetish." But it's pretty harmful as well.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'll concede that point. Trans bullshit is just a parasitic leech that kills everything it touches.

[–]throwaway999 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm bi and I agree with you. I am a former TRA, and I'm actually bisexual, actually same-sex leaning. The idea that every bi person who does something bad/is a TRA is just a het faker is ridiculous. L&G are a minority within a minority. I know several (real) bis, but I only know a single lesbian and zero gay men (to be fair, I don't go out much or participate in "LGBT" groups) in real life. Of course you want your own space, and you deserve it. There will always be a mixed space with homosexuals and bisexuals, but bi people also need their own spaces so they don't feel the need to rely on exclusively homosexual spaces, which are desperately needed. It seems like everyone here has forgotten why LGB is even a thing in the first place: it's a minority group built to lobby for our rights as a minority x_x . So don't homosexuals get to have their own groups so their voices are heard and they can spend time with one another?