LesbianHow a lesbian can believe she is a gay trans man... - GNC Centric

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[–]hufflepuff-poet 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

The one that really blows my mind is the trans men who only date other trans men but call themselves "gay men". I always just see them as butch lesbians with extra steps, seems like a lot of internalized homophobia.

[–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That one honestly makes the most sense to me. Advertising yourself as a transman who only dates other transmen will make it way easier to find other women who want to date women... with the corollary damage of irreversible and largely-untested, experimental medical treatments and surgeries. :/

[–]TransspeciesUnicornI sexually identify as a mythical sparkly equine 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yeah, I don't understand these types of trans people at all. I can understand the gay-to-straight transitioners who want to be seen as normal gender-conforming straight people instead of butch lesbians/effeminate gay men. I can understand the straight-to-gay fetishists who just want to treat "gay" as a fun diversion.

But gay-to-gay transitioners? The gay people who transition and then want to be seen as a gay person of the opposite sex are pretty baffling. The amount of self-deception and mental gymnastics involved here are pretty astounding to me. How do you convince yourself you're a gay man when the only "men" you're interested in all have pussies, and when you're probably rarely dating "cis" men, if at all? Just like telling yourself you're not interested in women while probably exclusively dating other females and telling yourself you're interested in men while probably never dating any actual males and only wanting this very special <1% subtype of "men". That sounds so mentally draining and emotionally exhausting. And same for gay male MtFs wanting to be "lesbians" while only being interested in sucking dick.

The only thing I can really think of is that it's like the result of two different types of conditioning coming together in this bizarre clash. On one hand there's just the standard internalized homophobia, but then on the other there's the liberal conditioning of not wanting to be an evil straight oppressor. So they don't want to be gay, but they don't want to be straight. So I guess then telling themselves they're attracted to and dating "men" helps ease the part of them that feels gross for being attracted to women. And then the "gay man" part means they're not an evil het oppressor like the "straight" FtMs? I really don't know.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Same boat as you. I'm fascinated and confused by this subgroup of people as well.

Couple other ideas I'll summarize, adding to yours:

  • Yours: Young gay person tries to reconcile a) their internalized homophobia ("I can't be a gay person") and b) the message that "straights are evil," which on Tumblr is both pervasive and powerful. And then... somehow concludes that they're gay but NOT gay as a member of their actual sex? (I might add to this: I was taught growing up, myself, that "gay men are fun! Dazzling! Your ideal bestie! and lesbians are mean predators;" maybe some of these young women were also taught positive and harmful stereotypes about gay men, and negative and harmful stereotypes about lesbians? I'm grasping at straws here...)

My other guesses:

  1. Dissociation from bodily experiences - Some research suggests that GNC people ("masculine" girls, "feminine" boys) are more likely to be bullied, sexually assaulted, etc. than people who are more "gender-conforming," and homosexual/bisexual people are more likely to be GNC. Both sexual assault, as well as shame about being same sex attracted, may lead to avoidance of thinking about one's own genitals, sexual arousal experiences, etc. People with this symptom might well miss entirely what their body is telling them, and then decide their "sexual orientation" purely on the basis of peer pressure, some article they read on Tumblr that made them feel accepted, etc. Maybe their body is screaming "no" but they wouldn't hear it.

  2. Paraphilia - I think it's possible to be homosexual and have a paraphilia that is validated by the opposite sex. Ray Blanchard has talked about this before a little, and there is a data analysis blog covered a similar topic.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Whenever these girls pop up I'm torn. On one hand they could be many different reasons why they are drawn to yaoi type stuff, which they will tell you often relates to misogyny https://ovarit.com/o/Radfemmery/6096/fandom-spaces , or having a type of "comic book sexuality" as another commenter put it; or on the other hand is all this just women trying to excuse and justify their fetish for gay men? There could be different subtypes going on here — and it would be interesting to see the trajectory of these women over time, but my gut feeling is that like 90% of this stuff is just plain AAP.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There could be different subtypes going on here

Probably the most realistic answer.

or on the other hand is all this just women trying to excuse and justify their fetish for gay men

I am inclined to believe that at least for some of these women, that is the case.

but my gut feeling is that like 90% of this stuff is just plain AAP.

Yeah...

[–]usehername[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

I really want to hear your thoughts on this, especially lesbians. She mentions the comphet essay, which I haven't read, but I have read the comphet masterdoc and it's a mess. However, it's important to keep in mind that for the majority of the time she believed she was a "gay trans man", she was on anti-depressants and not experiencing sexual arousal.

[–]our_team_is_winning 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (35 children)

This is so "out there" to me that a lesbian could see herself as a "gay trans man" -- so instead of thinking "I'm attracted to women, so I must be a man" -- she thinks "I'm actually a man, and I'm attracted to other men, so I'm gay" -- if you're a "lesbian" attracted to men, you're a straight woman. If you're specifically attracted to gay men and imagine yourself to magically be a gay man, it's a fetish.

I've watched her before, and my takeaway was that anime / yaoi is a helluva drug. Is this Japan's "revenge served cold" after Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But she's Canadian....

[–]usehername[S] 7 insightful - 7 fun7 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

anime / yaoi is a helluva drug. Is this Japan's "revenge served cold" after Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

I want you to know I literally cried laughing at this line.

[–]DiveBarDiva 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (32 children)

I think since she was on such heavy antidepressants she wasn’t attracted to anyone while this was going on. I don’t think she was a fetishist. She was just trying to figure out the type of relationship she would want to be on based on power dynamics. Her dysphoria made her think she was male, her internalized misogyny and lesbophobia made female relationships seem off putting. It doesn’t help that lesbian porn is the only time a young person who doesn’t know any lesbians in real life would see anything to do with lesbians. Not experiencing any type of attraction would make it hard to figure out your sexuality. I agree I the anime is contributing to this stuff happening. I wonder how though.

[–]our_team_is_winning 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (31 children)

I don’t think she was a fetishist.

Agreed in her case. I like her a lot. I've watched some of her videos and an interview. But teenage girls in general seem to be going the fetish route over gay men, mostly from anime sources (not even real men, just cartoons of pretty boys).

I think it's a non-threatening form of sexual dabbling. They have no clue about actual gay men. It's more like comic book sexuality. Is there a word for yaoi being a girl's sexual orientation? (Afraid to go looking. Still reeling from diaper fur.)

[–]usehername[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

I think it's a non-threatening form of sexual dabbling. They have no clue about actual gay men. It's more like comic book sexuality.

That sounds about right.

Is there a word for yaoi being a girl's sexual orientation?

I looked for you and couldn't find one, but I'd just call her a mentally ill fetishist who needs therapy.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

In case you're curious, I've heard of people talk about autoandrophilia (AAP) as being analogous to AGP. I want to say there was like one preliminary study done on it... But many of the researchers who study paraphilias seem to assume that women are too "pure" or some shit to have paraphilias, so there's less investigation into paraphilias that are common among women as opposed to men.

[–]usehername[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I am familiar with AAP; that was the fetish I was referring to when I called the hypothetical girl a fetishist, but I appreciate you spreading awareness. I interpreted the question as looking for a tumblr-esque term like "yaoisexual" that people would willingly identify as, but you're right, that's just AAP lol.

many of the researchers who study paraphilias seem to assume that women are too "pure" or some shit to have paraphilias

This is such a dumb idea. Men do tend to have more paraphilias and their paraphilias tend to be more severe, but the idea that women don't even have them is ridiculous. I have met several women with paraphilias, even a couple who would qualify as having a paraphilic disorder.

so there's less investigation into paraphilias that are common among women as opposed to men.

Almost all research on masochism is done on males--aside from those who claim it's natural in women--despite the fact that masochism is way more common in women.

It sucks. This research is essential, especially in the context of trans issues.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Oh gotcha, yeah no problem, I think it's messed up that so many people are trying to hide the phenomena of AAP/AGP when those terms really do describe some people's lived experience. Not surprised you already knew about it, you seem well-read on a lot of these topics.

This is such a dumb idea. Men do tend to have more paraphilias and their paraphilias tend to be more severe, but the idea that women don't even have them is ridiculous. I have met several women with paraphilias, even a couple who would qualify as having a paraphilic disorder.

Agreed. I do think this is one casualty of having men (male people...) so heavily dominant in many academic fields. There are whole areas of human study where research on males is over-emphasized and there's hardly any research on women at all.

Almost all research on masochism is done on males--aside from those who claim it's natural in women--despite the fact that masochism is way more common in women.

What! That's ridiculous, lol. I actually laughed out loud in disbelief...

It may strike most people as non-intuitive but it does seem that studying paraphilias would be super helpful for the LGB community... since the paraphilia-dominated TQ+ movement is currently silencing and shaming LGB people.

[–]usehername[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it's messed up that so many people are trying to hide the phenomena of AAP/AGP when those terms really do describe some people's lived experience.

Yeah, on this forum, I just assumed everyone knows, but I think that you're right that that isn't the case. Not everyone has as much time as me to read cringey shit.

men (male people...)

I laughed at the specification. Fucked that it's necessary. I guess we have to keep our lurkers in mind.

There are whole areas of human study where research on males is over-emphasized and there's hardly any research on women at all.

It's every field other than obstetrics and gynecology, really. Every aspect of life. Even car seats are designed for men and most companies don't use crash-test dummies based on females, which is why we're more likely to die in a car crash.

It may strike most people as non-intuitive but it does seem that studying paraphilias would be super helpful for the LGB community... since the paraphilia-dominated TQ+ movement is currently silencing and shaming LGB people.

Then we can finally kick them out of Pride lmao. However, the pro-kink crowd is now equating any questioning of paraphilia with homophobia since wE'rE aLl QuEErz, and any questioning of AGP (and by association, AAP) with "transphobia" so a researcher needs to overcome that hurdle in our woke climate. Which isn't to say there isn't any hope, as it seems like things may be swinging in our direction, or at least their momentum is decreasing, but just to explain why the research isn't being done, other than the obvious: not caring about mobile breeding sows.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Almost all research on masochism is done on males--aside from those who claim it's natural in women--despite the fact that masochism is way more common in women.

What! That's ridiculous, lol. I actually laughed out loud in disbelief...

That does appear to be the case. Paraphilia in women gravitates to masochism. Masochism, in this sense, revolves around interpersonal power, and there are a variety of concepts that exemplify that. It's usually not beatings.

The really interesting thing about paraphilia in women is that it does not seem very prevalent in heterosexual-identified women. Bisexual and homosexual identified women seem to lead the pack. There are a few hypothesis on this.

It may strike most people as non-intuitive but it does seem that studying paraphilias would be super helpful for the LGB community... since the paraphilia-dominated TQ+ movement is currently silencing and shaming LGB people.

I could not agree more.

[–]usehername[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The really interesting thing about paraphilia in women is that it does not seem very prevalent in heterosexual-identified women. Bisexual and homosexual identified women seem to lead the pack. There are a few hypothesis on this.

Masochism in het women is considered normal, but I'd say the majority of young women enjoy some sort of masochistic element, and the rest are pressured into it.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Is there a word for yaoi being a girl's sexual orientation?

Autoandrophilia? Would be abbreviated as AAP. Some human sex researchers believe that "women are too pure to have fetishes like men do," though, so they haven't studied it.

(Afraid to go looking. Still reeling from diaper fur.)

Completely understandable.

[–]our_team_is_winning 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Some human sex researchers believe that "women are too pure to have fetishes

So it's not actually a fact, it's just a suspicion with no research to back it up.

Women definitely have some kind of "fetish" - if you define it as sexual attraction to something other than our sex organs or sexed body parts [I mean, broad shoulders and a muscular chest isn't a sex organ, but it's definitely a very male thing, so I wouldn't call attraction to that a "fetish" if you're into men.]

I was thinking specifically of the vampire craze. At one point there was just one TV series after another with "sexy vampires" -- and of course the Twilight books and all the others in that genre (nothing new actually) -- and so many women glued to them. Getting turned on by that seems like a fetish to me.

[–]usehername[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I know you weren't talking to me, but I wanted to say that when females read yaoi, they usually imagine themselves as one of the males, which is the AAP aspect; the attraction to the males isn't generally the fetishistic part.

So it's not actually a fact, it's just a suspicion with no research to back it up.

This is anecdotal, but I have met AAPs before, and you can find people online saying they are AAP and describing all the signs (as analogous to AGP). However the idea that "women are too pure to have paraphilias" is contrary to the evidence, and to me, it only seems logical that there would be a reverse of AGP.

I was thinking specifically of the vampire craze. At one point there was just one TV series after another with "sexy vampires" -- and of course the Twilight books and all the others in that genre (nothing new actually) -- and so many women glued to them. Getting turned on by that seems like a fetish to me.

Yes, definitely. I think that would also fall under the umbrella of either sadism or masochism, but more specific. Some people really do identify as "vampiresexual/vampsexual".

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

yaoi

I've been trying to unravel why the medium for this is strictly artistic. Perhaps it's just too niche, but it's been suggested to me that autism plays a role insofar as the anime genre uses exaggerated emotions, which are apparently more readily understood, yaoi or not.

[–]usehername[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Possibly, but there's also the fact that drawn nudity is a lot less jarring than actual nudity. These gals may also watch live gay porn, though, but pedophilia is a common theme in yaoi, which can't be done live without severe consequences.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

There are common themes in literature that women tend to find erotic. Beast-taming is probably the short way to put it. 50 shades? Beauty and the beast? This does however strike me as an epiphenomena.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Epiphenomena of what? Masochism?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I don't think so.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Ok, epiphenomena of what?

[–]usehername[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Beauty in the beast is not erotic literature for women, it's propaganda for girls to accept arranged marriages with abusive men.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The theme of beauty and the beast. Not specifically the Disney film.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Is this Japan's "revenge served cold" after Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Oh god, lol.

[–]strictly 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I really want to hear your thoughts on this, especially lesbians. She mentions the comphet essay, which I haven't read, but I have read the comphet masterdoc and it's a mess. However, it's important to keep in mind that for the majority of the time she believed she was a "gay trans man", she was on anti-depressants and not experiencing sexual arousal.

I can’t say anything about this specific case due to her young age and the anti-depressants she was on. Many comphet stuff I’ve come across though just reads like the woman is giving a long account of how sexually irresistible she finds men but not liking the power this gives men over her, and for some reason interpreting that as lesbianism.

There could perhaps exist extreme cases where a lesbian for some reason thinks it’s obligatory to have sex with men and thinks testosterone would make such horrible inevitability slightly less so. I don’t think this is common though. Most lesbian-identifying people who transition and start identifying as gay men just sound androphilic, often they admit having been attracted to men before transitioning, having been fans of yaoi/gay porn, and mention androphilic/AAP reasons for having identified as lesbians before (i.e it made them feel more like the men they are attracted to). I think most gender dysphoric homosexual females would rather be straight men than gay men (I don't see why a lesbian, i.e someone who isn't attracted to men, would find the latter better than the former).

[–]Rag3 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I remember listening to Benji’s story when she first shared it and I was spellbound. It was like finding all the missing pieces to explain how young lesbians fell prey to this gender woo and believe that they are a gay man.

On her channel, she has interviews with other young lesbians who explain similar stories. Yaoi + deep shame and internalized homophobia are powerful motivators. :(

[–]reluctant_commenter 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I watched the video. I'll start by observing: (edited) Sexual attraction is THE factor that determines whether you're lesbian: if you're sexually attracted to women and not men, as a woman, then you're homosexual.

Having said that, I am wondering: Why didn't she talk more about her attraction to women...? The video's title is "How a lesbian can believe she is a gay trans man," but it just as accurately could have been: "How a woman can believe she is a gay trans man." She didn't really talk about how she came to the realization that she's homosexual; she closest she got to talking about it was describing her fear of "having to end up with a man." You could just as easily be asexual, or bisexual and not wanting to date men, by that description. For me, a huge part of realizing that I might be gay, was waking up to the fact that I feel grossed out by the idea of having sex with men; from what I hear from other gay women, they also tend to feel grossed out or at best, not interested in having sex with men. Yet in this video, she barely talked about what her ACTUAL sexual attraction pattern was. To give the benefit of the doubt, I have not seen GNC Centric's other youtube videos, so maybe she talks about her attraction to women elsewhere, but given just this video, I'm unsure as to what made her conclude that she is lesbian. It seems like she is gender-nonconforming and most comfortable in her skin when she has a "masculine" presentation (as some people would call it), but you could be bisexual and GNC, or even straight and GNC.

Additionally-- I'm inclined to question whether she is gay specifically because she cited the "compulsory heterosexuality" concept, coined and praised by radical feminists who believe that being a lesbian is a choice-- i.e. political lesbians. I.e. mostly-straight women who have a misunderstanding of what homosexuality is. Typically, I don't assume someone's sexual orientation, and when someone says something that runs counter to the sexual orientation they say they have, I try to give the benefit of the doubt. But... if you're sitting there quoting homophobic "political lesbians" at me, then there's good reason to doubt.

I actually have been meaning to watch this video for a while, I'm glad you posted a discussion about it.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

u/yousaythosethings Sorry to bother you but I'm very curious what your thoughts are on this one, since it's so closely related to conversations we've had before. :)