DiscussionThe same Colorado baker who refused to bake the gay wedding cake is now being fined for refusing to bake a transition cake.

submitted by julesburm1891 from (npr.org)

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[–]julesburm1891[S] 39 insightful - 4 fun39 insightful - 3 fun40 insightful - 4 fun -  (8 children)

Here’s my take on this:

  1. This is being marketed as an LGBT issue when, this time, it is only a T issue. Of course it is.
  2. Given the guy’s past, this doesn’t seem like a good faith request to bake a cake. It feels like he’s been singled out to harass by an activist. (And we’re getting drug into the saga even when it now has nothing to do with us.)
  3. Unpopular opinion. I think there’s a difference between refusing to serve a group and refusing specific requests that violate someone’s religious beliefs. A baker refuses to bake a basic birthday cake for me because I’m a lesbian? That’s hateful and shouldn’t be allowed. A baker doesn’t want to bake a cake for my same-sex wedding because he or she is a devout Catholic and doesn’t support same-sex marriage? Okay. Fine. Whatever. They can keep their conscience clean and I can give an obscene amount of money to a baker who doesn’t have a problem with it. (That being said, the baker in the latter scenario is expected to take it on the chin if he or she loses all my business and/or all my friends’ and family’s business because of the refusal. The baker doesn’t get to have his cake and eat it.)

Anyways, what are your thoughts on this issue?

[–]SuperGayIsOkay 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Unpopular opinion. I think there’s a difference between refusing to serve a group and refusing specific requests that violate someone’s religious beliefs. A baker refuses to bake a basic birthday cake for me because I’m a lesbian? That’s hateful and shouldn’t be allowed. A baker doesn’t want to bake a cake for my sake-sex wedding because he or she is a devout Catholic and doesn’t support same-sex marriage? Okay. Fine. Whatever.

100% the correct take on this. This isn't a lifesaving or essential service, such as medical care or plumbing. This is a baker being asked to create something inherently artistic. Is it shitty that he's a homophobe? Yes, but there are limits to what someone in a creative job can be asked to make and artists generally have "I reserve the right to say no to any commission for any reason" clauses. A cake is something they could simply bake themselves, it's not as if he's literally the only baker with the tools or skills in the state.

I don't like that he's a homophobe but it's pretty clear he's being targeted to be made an example of. It struck me as an attempt to create a clash of first amendment rights vs gay rights, and it's especially clear from this second attempt that it's some self-styled activists deliberately enflaming tensions with religious people when it's unnecessary.

This is very different from say that office that refused to hand out gay marriage licenses after it was legalized in the state, where a state worker essentially was refusing to do the job she was elected to do and was a job that couldn't be done by someone else, and was ultimately fired as a result.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m all for antidiscrimination laws, but context should always be factored in. The reasoning behind the discrimination, the effect of the discrimination, and in what way was the discrimination carried out should be considered. Furthermore, a business would have sold you something that was made, but didn’t want to make a specific item for you and would not have made it for any customer, then obviously you weren’t discriminated against. Shit like this is why a growing number of people oppose antidiscrimination laws. If these laws are going to continue to exist, they might as well include sexual orientation (but not gender identity, whatever that means), but if somebody doesn't want these laws to exist at all, then I don’t care to disagree with him or her because of cases like this.

[–]SuperGayIsOkay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, this isn't helping anyone. This is only hurting our attempts to craft and enact actual antidiscrimination laws. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[–]dramasexual 18 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I'm firmly on the baker's side on this one. This is not some kind of systemic issue where a gay couple can't easily find a cake baker and the dude isn't even refusing to serve anyone, just refusing a specific commission he finds offensive. Everyone needs to leave this guy alone.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Well I’m glad you typed all that out so I didn’t have to.

My other thoughts are, if you all haven’t seen Jazz Jennings’s transition cake and how they had that child simulate cutting a penis, you really need to (🍆 ✂️ basically). My further thoughts are that other than that cake, how common are transition cakes and what do they consist of?

My gut instinct is that they are likely to be extremely regressive in gender stereotyping, even more so than the baby showers and gender (sex) reveal parties these days they’re always whining about. When most people just want to learn information about the baby that makes the baby seem more real and to foster closeness when the baby is “not there yet” for most people other than the mother.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Blue on the outside, pink on the inside. Or visa-versa.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Lol then I direct people to my other comment in this thread about the ironic symbolism in that.

[–][deleted] 34 insightful - 1 fun34 insightful - 0 fun35 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I think reading this same coverage on the far opposite political side of the spectrum would be enlightening: https://thefederalist.com/2021/03/23/lgbt-activists-haul-jack-phillips-into-court-again-this-time-over-transgender-and-satan-cakes/

You should get some idea about the vexatious litigant, who does not appear to be operating in good faith. NPR has omitted some facts.

To me this looks like an open-and-shut case of freedom of speech (lack of government ability to compel) and religious freedom tied with a neat bow.

Jack Phillips isn't refusing goods or services to people, he's refusing to make very specific, custom artistic renditions, which are considered speech. He's not kicking people out of his business or refusing to sell them goods.

Ultimately, I don't see how sticking it to Phillips is somehow advancing the LGBTQ+ movement. It's just a narcissistic vendetta. The very first gay litigants may have been operating in good faith, but everything since is certainly not.

I disagree with Jack Phillips on the basis of his religion, which is a matter of faith, and I would not argue that with him. However, I am fond of Jack Phillips insofar as he has his principles and he's sticking with them--not rolling over or virtue signaling on something he knows, and we know, is bonkers.

[–]julesburm1891[S] 35 insightful - 2 fun35 insightful - 1 fun36 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Details NPR left out:

  1. The transwoman verbally harassed the shop owner multiple times in print and over the phone before requesting the transition cake
  2. The transwoman requested a cake with Satan smoking a joint after the shop owner declined the transition cake but said he’d be willing to make other cakes for him
  3. The shop owner refuses to do any cakes disparaging LGB people, trans people, or any other group of people

…I think it’s safe to say Autumn is the asshole here.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This shopkeeper sounds like a reasonable bloke. The fact that he refuses to make cakes that disparage LGB people is proof that he is not a bad person. And even if he was a bad person, it’s not like he’s the only baker in the county.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 22 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I refuse to force people to bow down and comply with my most ridiculous demands.

Would I be slightly butthurt to be rebuffed on a wedding cake order? Yes. But I'd move on and find another baker. Life is too short to make enemies over stupid stuff.

This kind of advocacy isn't going to make people feel warm and fuzzy about LGBTQ+. As a matter of fact I don't feel very warm and fuzzy about the TQ+ part, and even the LGB part pisses me off more often than I'd like.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even without the T and all the other extra letters, the LGB on their own shoot ourselves in the feet with our behaviour.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 0 fun28 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

"Jack Phillips isn't refusing goods or services to people, he's refusing to make very specific, custom artistic renditions, which are considered speech. He's not kicking people out of his business or refusing to sell them goods."

That sums up the crux of the issue.

[–]Horror-SwordfishI don't get how flairs work 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Yeah, I decided to go see what they're saying about this on Reddit and of course they're getting the story completely twisted and none of the relevant facts correct, and just going with, "Well he's a Nazi, of course."

[–]julesburm1891[S] 20 insightful - 3 fun20 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I made the mistake of talking it over with a friend who immediately decided the shop owner was the villain and the transwoman was the hero for “making him comply with the state’s law.” When I pointed out that this is just as likely to get Colorado’s law overturned because the Supreme Court has already ruled in the baker’s favor, she just stopped talking to me.

[–]SuperGayIsOkay 17 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Ugh, people who think they're progressive can be such self-righteous assholes, honestly.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That’s why I avoid political topics on Reddit. If you debate an idiot, you’re using up valuable energy. And Reddit is full of idiots. Also, their excessive use of the word "nazi". I despise people who use that word to describe anyone they don’t like.

[–]BEB 13 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

When it comes to gender ideology, NPR ALWAYS omits some facts. Like, all of them.

[–]kwallio 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm so, so disappointed in NPR. Like I'm a lifelong NPR listener who basically quit listening this year over the gender idiocy and other bias that was completely apparent. Its incredibly depressing.

[–]notwistary 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They're funded by the Arcus Foundation, who is one of the major trans activist organizations funded by the Strykers. It makes me really sad to see what NPR has become bc it was the gold standard for reporting.

[–]BEB 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Back in the day, NPR was referred to by some critics as "National Petroleum Radio" I'm guessing because it did soft ball lobbying for Big Oil, just like it's doing now for Big Gender.

Except NPR is blatant about its Big Gender lobbying - I am not exaggerating that on the rare occasion I turned on NPR, usually in the car when I was desperate, I almost always heard some fawning report on an aspect of gender ideology, whether it was a celebration of "trans kids" or a trans-identified male winning some women's beauty prize.

How are we supposed to trust any of these media outlets that are basically lobbyists for Big Gender on other topics? I'm side-eying all media at the moment, including "independent media" like Democracy Now! which is also a mouthpiece for Big Gender.

[–]NonimeTired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits (TERF) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The very first gay litigants may have been operating in good faith, but everything since is certainly not.

I actually think that the first gay litigants were not operating in good faith, and deliberately went after him knowing he wouldn't likely provide the cake. They apparently became incredibly belligerent immediately, cursing at him in his shop after he politely turned them away, then immediately sued. My gut instinct is that they are attention-seeking, narcissistic people.

Colorado's first rulings on this were embarrassing and biased, which has disappointed me in the state.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 23 insightful - 6 fun23 insightful - 5 fun24 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

What are the odds that 'Autumn' wanted a 'birthday cake' with a message like

Happy birthday to this wet manpussy!

and deliberately went to a bakery that was well known for its legal disputes around serving cakes to gay customers, knowing full well that they would refuse, only to claim faux outrage?

[–]julesburm1891[S] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah. He very clearly didn’t want a cake. He just wanted to shit stir.

[–]SuperGayIsOkay 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Completely agree. Shitty person deliberately stirring up shit.

[–]chazzstrong 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

These people have no souls. They are disgusting bullies, plain and simple.
The baker does not owe anyone his time and labor. The man in this story and the gay couple prior are able to walk in and walk out with any cake he has for purchase...but they don't want that, they want to force this man to expend his labor in creating a custom cake depicting a message that goes directly contrary to his beliefs.
You don't have to share those beliefs, either, to see how wrong this is. Other scenarios would involve forcing a Halal restaurant to cook and serve pork, or to flip the coin: a gay baker must design and make a cake depicting whatever verse in the bible those nut jobs quote to say their God is against homosexuality. Or maybe a black baker creating a tiered cake of the scene of some KKK spooks lynching a black man?

There was another story circulating around at the same time of some white supremacist parents who wanted their child's name to be 'Adolf Hitler Whatever' or something to that tune, and they were denied that by the judge. Apart from the abject stupidity of naming a kid that and expecting their life to be anything BUT horrendous, I don't see how it is any judge's choice on what a parent names their child. I guess in short, I think we have way too many federal judges, and I think we give them WAY too much power, and freedom to wield that power however they want.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

This is religious persecution.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Exactly. Would these people go after an atheist baker who said no? Or a Muslim baker who said no? Or a Jewish baker who said no? It’s always Christian bakers who these people harass.

[–]julesburm1891[S] 14 insightful - 7 fun14 insightful - 6 fun15 insightful - 7 fun -  (2 children)

The chaotic neutral in me kind of wants a court case where a Muslim-owned business refuses a service to a trans person.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 8 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I’d love to see that happen. The comments from Muslims in online forums and the large scale protests in Muslim dominated areas in western countries would generate plenty of lulz and trigger woke leftists to kingdom come.

[–]notwistary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think we would see so-called "progressives" explode at whether they should be Islamophobic or transphobic. I would pay to watch.

[–]Criticallacitirc 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The article says Autumn specifically went to the baker the day of the ruling to challenge that he wouldn't deny a customer because they were LGBT. If Autumn had simply requested a birthday cake and he said no, then I would say that is discrimination. However the specifically requested a cake for their birthday that celebrated their transition. Which In my eyes is not the same, the Supreme Court already ruled he didn't have to make cakes for things he didn't believe in....not sure why activists think this is any different?

Also....just leave this dude alone. Its absolutely insane that we devote so much space to ONE baker in Colorado.

[–]SuperGayIsOkay 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The worst part is if anything it's just resulting in increased hatred of LGB people by these religious folks and isn't actually helping anything.

[–]julesburm1891[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ugh. Absolutely. It’s just asshole behavior that’s going to fall back on us.

[–]insta 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Their goal is not acceptance. This is power politics.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is just harassment at this point. Leave the poor man alone. There are other bakeries in Colorado. Jesus.

This trans woman ** knew** that the baker would never bake his customised birthday cake. But the trans woman did not want a birthday cake; he wanted a lawsuit and public sympathy.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

In Tuesday's ruling, Denver District Judge A. Bruce Jones said Autumn Scardina was denied a cake that was blue on the outside and pink on the inside to celebrate her gender transition on her birthday because of her transgender status in violation of the law.

I mean if we stick with the blue/pink dichotomy (they LOVE fossilizing gender stereotypes), then it would be more accurate to have a MtF transition be represented by blue on inside and pink on the outside. Because no matter how they cosmetically alter their body to look like the opposite sex, their internal biology remains that of their actual sex.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If they knew that, they wouldn’t transition.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

From a legal standpoint I’m worried about this becoming bad law that affects us. People like him want to conflate trans with gay for personal gain, ride our coattails or take us down with them if they can’t. But as we’ve seen time and time again, when it’s to their benefit they are happy to throw gay people under the bus.

[–]Socialjustus 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

The guy should just convert to Islam so the left leaves him alone.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Haha

[–]upcomingDaddygay af 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Lol I'd just buy the cheapest grocery store cake I could find and give it to em.

[–]Tikiri 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This “Autumn” dude was running his own law firm in Colorado! Specializing in divorce cases, of all things! Can you imagine him representing you in a contentious divorce case⁉️😳

[–]JulienMayfair 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The first case against this guy made all of us look petty and vindictive. The second case makes all of us look even more petty and vindictive.

All other points aside, do these people have no comprehension of PUBLIC RELATIONS? Do they wonder why people's attitudes towards everyone under the goddamn LGBTQ umbrella are turning more negative?

[–]Shales123 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I never liked the cake case

[–]fuck_reddit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s almost like the Colorado equality commission or whatever the fuck it was called was never about equality…