Women's IssuesTIL Only men have universally female experiences

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[–]ThiccDropkickGay 12 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 4 fun -  (20 children)

Tbh after feminist women spent years telling us that nobody was more qualified than them to speak about male behaviour and men's issues, it's funny to see a bit of the reverse.

But that's just my cynical asshole side coming out. This is bad

[–]supersmokio6420 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

I do think that's a big part of why there seems to be so few men speaking on this topic. We've had close to 10 years of the prevailing message being that men should shut up and listen, they don't get to have an opinion, that disagreement is 'mansplaining'.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

One thing I have always wondered, but had to kind of keep to myself is: to what extent do people think that some 'feminist' discourse lead to the problems that we're seeing today?

Specifically the downplaying of biological differences between men and women and the belief that any and all differences between outcomes for men and women are down to patriarchal socialisation and literally nothing else.

For me, it seems like only a small leap from 'men and women are biologically the same and all misogyny is due to socialisation' to 'men and women are biologically the same so I can just call myself a woman'.

Not an expert on feminist theory by any means (obviously) and put 'feminist' in large scare quotes because I might just be wildly straw-manning here.

Edit: Thanks for your input all. It has been pointed out that this isn't a mainstream feminist belief and is more of an SJW wacko belief, so no shade to feminism. Original comment will remain for transparency.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Feminists don't believe that males and females are biologically the same, they believe men and women are of equal value. They also don't think that females have brain structures that prevent being of equal intellectual ability to men.

The sexes are not interchangeable, and I think New Social Movements, in a bid to build a better world, glossed over fundamental biological realities repeatedly.

New Social Movements used a majority of the tactics that we complain about the gender movement using- it's a continuation of an established pattern.

[–][deleted] 28 insightful - 1 fun28 insightful - 0 fun29 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thank you. I'm so sick of people, mainly dudes, blaming feminism for everything.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm not even a feminist, I just know what they think in general.

I think feminism gets scapegoated for things other movements- say, the gay rights movement, for instance- all do.

I think the correct answer is to say "all of them" because it's a trait all New Social Movements share. From Animal Rights to Environmentalism to Feminism.

[–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Very true. I've always considered myself a feminist so I appreciated a level headed summary instead of 'well you guys said xyz and that's why the world is fucked'.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

It's all your fault mwahahaha 😈

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I should change my flair to "hi I'm here to ruin everything" lmao

[–][deleted] 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Specifically the downplaying of biological differences between men and women and the belief that any and all differences between outcomes for men and women are down to patriarchal socialisation and literally nothing else.

Either you've only been exposed to cherry picked examples of people claiming to be feminists who say these things, or you're being intentionally reductive.

Feminism does not downplay biological differences between men and women. Feminists are the main ones highlighting our differences in size and strength in order to protect female only sports, changing rooms, rape shelters, and prisons.

If you mean neurological differences specifically then yes, feminism objects to that. Because there hasn't been any good research to show sex differences in brains apart from grey matter density and overall size. Nothing has suggested one sex is more or less intelligent, more or less emotional, etc.

The main solid piece of evidence that has been found is proof of innate sexual orientation. News headlines misrepresent the results by saying things like 'studies show gay men's brains are similar to women.' When a more accurate statement would be 'brain similarities found in all male attracted individuals.'

Assumptions that male and female brains are innately different structurally and innately function differently are what lead to autism and ADHD continuing to go undiagnosed in women, because socialization causes those disorders to present differently in women. Assumptions like that also lead to many women being forgotten in the history of mathematics and engineering, because people still think women can't be as smart as men, and that it's a """biological difference"""" between the sexes.

Even if we were to discover that on average men are Y and women are X as far as brains are concerned, that would not be an excuse to claim that outliers in either category make them the opposite sex. Or to claim that those averages hold true for all men and women.

Feminists object to ideas that men are somehow more rational and more in control of their emotions, while some men, in their own words, claim that they need to watch porn to stop themselves from raping a woman, or that the reason teenage girls are sent home for tank tops and shorts is because teenage boys can't control themselves.

Huge difference between that and 'literally all differences are due to socialization.'

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Either you've only been exposed to cherry picked examples of people claiming to be feminists who say these things, or you're being intentionally reductive

It's important to remember that liberal feminism is the dominant hegemonic current of feminism most hear about, so it's not surprising to hear this kind of misunderstanding.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

True, which is why I wanted to put that clause there. Liberal feminist rhetoric is very regressive in a lot of ways.

[–]supersmokio6420 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know that people think its feminist discourse specifically that's led to it, so much as 'social justice warrior-ism'. The tactics that have been developed - the shutting down discussion, accusing your opponent of being a sexist/racist/transphobe, claiming victory through smears and censorship, the language of oppressor and oppressed - we saw them used by feminists with the whole 'Gamergate' thing for example, but they aren't inherent to feminist discourse. And now they're largely being used against feminists by transactivists.

Nowadays there's a clear and obvious schism between the two, but that's only developed over the last few years. "These tactics will be used against you one day" was a prediction regularly made back in the 'gamergate' days - and now here we are.

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think there may be some truth there. By ignoring all biological sexual dimorphism in humans in regard to any issue they ever talked about, the most vocal and most stereotypical feminists have made it much less of a leap for the T to ignore all biological sexual dimorphism in humans in regard to another issue that feminists never talked about.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Because feminists are not the ones ignoring sexual dimorphism...

[–]Shales123 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No. Cults are highly manipulative and their tactics can be effective whether or not their beliefs have any precedent in society.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's definitely an element of that. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't entirely them; but it's a world they helped create. Growing up I was always told it was sexist to suggest that men were better than women at anything. Children's shows and cartoons would frequently use the ”boy thinks girl can't do something sporty, girl ends up being better than him at it” trope. We all knew that it wasn't quite true, but this is what was spearheaded by some feminists and we were told to shut our mouths and stop being misogynistic for questioning it.

Again I’m not saying feminists are completely responsible, and I’m aware that the are different (conflicting) strands of the movement, but the commenters telling you feminism had no part in this are just wrong.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I will break with a lot of the other women in here and say that I think this does demotivate a lot of men but also in my experience it’s easier to convince men (rather than women) that there’s something rotten in the state of gender identity but it’s much harder to convince them to care and that it’s not merely a fringe issue, other than maybe as a free speech concern. And while they can recognize the conflict with free speech, they also feel like they have less need to speak about it because they’re not seeing the frequent incursion into their lives or the language they are expected to use to describe themselves and their own lives. So you can see how that also contributes to a sense of them thinking women are blowing this out of proportion.

So while I find more gay men than gay women are able to see the trans nonsense for what it is, they also have more of an ability to opt out of it (though increasingly less so).

On the woman side it’s like a lot of us are living in the dark in isolation worried about how this will affect our friendships and ability to find partners. And the rest of gay women don’t even realize the amount of us living in fear and they don’t know because we’re afraid to tell them because we’re not sure if they will treat us like an enemy or not, so it’s easier for them to dismiss that this is happening.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think it’s a perfect storm of social justice dogma not just or exclusively feminism, and there are different strains of feminism. At this point I don’t adhere to any of them and don’t want to outsource my thinking to any ideology, but I do agree with a lot of points and goals.

Anyway, just keep in mind that there are a lot of people thinking this about gay people as a result of gender ideology and I think we need to think and talk about why that is. Of course supporting gay rights now doesn’t mean we can’t talk about whether we would or should have done things differently before and how the gay rights movement led to this (not that I think it was inevitable). We do need to talk about how and why the T got added, by whom, and why we went along with it and didn’t question it (for those of us who didn’t question it).

So “funny” isn’t the word I would use but it’s a point worth making, and it’s not totally wrong. Sigh.

[–]usehername 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I... don’t want to outsource my thinking to any ideology

This is the perfect description of ideologues. I'll be using this.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Glad it resonated. I try to keep myself grounded in the real world and thinking about practical solutions and consequences. I aim to develop practical rules for myself that are a general starting point but are subject to change if the right circumstances present themselves (which now that I think about it is how the common law system we have in America works). I don’t want to be swindled by charlatans and I don’t want to get caught in the web of reactionaries of any kind either. Activists play an important role in keeping issues in the public consciousness but to implement policies that have to balance the interests of greater society and a number of people with varying amounts of political power, it’s dangerous to just let an activist/ideologue implement their vision whole-cloth. It’s simply not in their nature to be thinking about everyone else’s interests.

I’m also reminded of the “Just So” children’s stories and their like. They give plausible stories and explanations for how things developed and why they are the way they are. But they’re all made up. Just because something sounds right doesn’t make it right or accurate and while it feels good to have simple explanations and solutions for complex and stressful problems. I feel like ideologies are prone to this.

For example, when radfems say that men prefer no body hair because their preferences are pedophilic in nature. Like nah fam, as a lesbian I don’t like body hair on women (or men). I’m just very tactile and sensitive to texture (in both good and bad ways) and it’s not visually appealing on women or men. But pedophilic? Christ.