all 44 comments

[–]sneeuweekhoorn 29 insightful - 7 fun29 insightful - 6 fun30 insightful - 7 fun -  (22 children)

Do they mean trans women? Because that's the only kind of "woman" gay men could sleep with and still be gay.

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There is no solution to this. By saying that a man who has sex with a transwoman is gay is factually correct, but goes against gender ideology that says he is straight. The statement also would call the transwoman a woman for the main part of the sentence but then a man when talking about his sleeping habits. That's like saying, "So when the innocent defendant commited the crime, he was without blame and fully culpable"

The problem isn't Stonewall using gender ideology here, it's that they used inconsistent logic.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I still wouldn’t sleep with a trans woman. Yes, he’s a man, but he doesn’t look like a man anymore. And he doesn’t live in reality.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (6 children)

Yeah, truth. Wouldn't sleep with transmen either. I don't even like normal masculine women, let alone a testosterone taking one. And they would probably want to use some fake dick on me to feel mainly. Fuck off lol

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I prefer masculine men over feminine men, but there are butch trans women out there and I still wouldn’t date them. Trans women might have the parts but the crucial secondary features that make men attractive are now gone, and some of them may never come back.

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Who would like to date a narcissist who in relationship will focus everything on themselves? Relationship is the union of two, not "one and their validator".

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Relationship is the union of two,

You're so romantic. I wished we can unite some day ;)

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. Dating a transgender person would be exhausting.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Trans women are great for bisexual for got a preferance toward the feminine.

[–]PatsyStone🚔Bisexual Sheriff 🤠 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think most bisexual men are interested in transwomen. It's a very niche group of men who prefer them, mostly sexual fetishists who are not necessarily safe for the transwomen to be around.

[–]MyLongestJourney 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You know homosexual people do sleep with the opposite sex for reasons other than pleasure.Like procreation,experimentation,or even a desperate attempt to hide the fact they are gay.They do not turn magically straight by doing so.

[–]PatsyStone🚔Bisexual Sheriff 🤠 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I feel like this nuance gets lost in the conversation when we talk about gay people who purport attraction to transpeople. I think rather than being closeted bisexuals, they are bowing to coercion.

Homophobia I think has adapted. Rather than punishing all same-sex attraction as was done in the past (and is still done in conservative spaces,) adapted homophobia punishes lack of hetero attraction. You can be as gay as you please as long as you're also straight.

Being crushed under the weight of pressure like that can lead a lot of gay people to engage in behavior they wouldn't choose on their own.

[–]yousaythosethingsWomXXn 👩‍❤️‍👩 WomXXn 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I mean I think it’s both really.

[–]PatsyStone🚔Bisexual Sheriff 🤠 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

So let's talk about both. I've been told I'm homophobic for suggesting this scenario is happening, and within the last month.

[–]yousaythosethingsWomXXn 👩‍❤️‍👩 WomXXn 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I think most people here of a non-Orangina (and a few others) variety would be OK with discussing both, but I think you are oversimplifying what other people have said and what you have said, which is complete denial that there are bisexual people in denial (or who don’t realize they are bisexual) contributing to scenarios like this or seem to realize how that can happen or why other people could reasonably come to that conclusion without hating bisexual people. Instead you accused me and other people who are reasonable and compassionate and interested in learning about bisexual issues of acting like bisexuals are “dirty” or that bisexuality is a dirty secret.

You even accused me of being a bisexual in denial (but also denied that anyone could be) and acted like I have some sort of anti-bisexual agenda, which I think the long-time bisexual contributors here would find as ludicrous as I do.

You also seem to misinterpret my longstanding curiosity at understanding the differences in experiences and issues between and among each group in here (lesbians, bi women, bi men, and gay men) as a bad thing. I am especially curious about the differences between bisexual women and lesbians because like a lot of bisexual and lesbian women, I have given thought about which one most accurately described my experiences. All the more reason for me to have the compassion for both groups that I have.

But as I’ve said in comments to you and/or others, in order to protect the interests of all of LGB and understand and support the unique interests of each group, we need to be able to delineate ourselves and work from a common set of definitions and understandings.

Also, I’ve been very open on here, in s/lesbians, and through pms about my coming out journey and process, including my limited experiences with men and my prior heterosexual marriage, so if I’m afraid of being called or considered a bisexual, my strategy leaves something to be desired. And if someone does think I’m one, I’d be more curious as to what made them draw that conclusion.

[–]PatsyStone🚔Bisexual Sheriff 🤠 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I had to dig up the comment you're talking about:

You:

I have to ask, did I touch a nerve by accusing OP of being a bisexual in denial?

Me:

Obviously! You know you did! Acting like being bisexual is some ugly dirty secret that you've caught a usurper engaging in is offensive to say the least. Dumping disapprobation on someone because you think you've sniffed out a bisexual is abusive behavior. You don't get to define other people or order them to accept an unwanted identity. This is directly contributing to a problem you want to rectify- bisexuals pretending to be gay.

People don't remember what you say, they remember how you made them feel. That guy's deeper in the closet now!

You would absolutely lose your top if someone accused you of being a bisexual in denial, and I've gotten the impression that other lesbians sometimes do just by your fixation on the topic. This is where my empathy comment came from. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Write a comment that you could take reading about yourself.

I'm glad that stuck with you. I still think that all of that. I was harsh about it because I thought you were being harsh and I was answering in kind.

As for this thread, the point MyLongestJourney made is one that I've been making.

Why do I have to wait for a lesbian to back me up in order to make a (correct!) observation about a situation? I'm right, I know I'm right, why am I treated like a threat? I've been saying this for months. I got harassed for days after I (correctly!) pointed out this coercion scenario was going on in an article where others saw closet bisexuals.

Do I not get input? I'm just always wrong by default, until a lesbian figures out the same thing on her own and I get to jump in and tell her she's right? I don't know if you've picked up that bisexual women sometimes do that here, it's a way to advocate for viewpoints we can't openly state. There is a power difference lesbians don't seem to want to acknowledge.

I'm not misunderstanding, I'm telling you this is the situation at hand.

[–]usehername 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I got harassed for days after I (correctly!) pointed out this coercion scenario was going on in an article where others saw closet bisexuals.

I acknowledged that that was a possible scenario, but also brought up an alternate explanation, which, even if it wasn't true in that case, does happen in other scenarios, which you vehemently denied. You have made homophobic comments in the past and dismissed lesbians' concerns about issues that directly effect them but do not effect you (non-lesbians identifying as lesbian). You were not harassed. I was just responding to you and we were having a conversation which deteriorated into insults on your part. If you don't want to continue the conversation, then block the user you're talking to or just stop responding.

[–]yousaythosethingsWomXXn 👩‍❤️‍👩 WomXXn 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

A while back I typed out a response to your comment that I described above and then ended up deleting it before I could post it because ultimately I did not think it was productive. I thought you were acting hypocritical af and exhibiting as much of a blindspot and grudge as you were accusing myself and others of having.

But what you don’t seem to realize is that “lesbian” is not really an important “identity” for me. The only person I tend to refer to myself as such to is my girlfriend. There is nothing on the public record attaching my name or face to the word “lesbian” or “gay.” I’m out in that I openly date women, and I engage in public displays of affection with women. But I never made any public statement on social media or otherwise about being “gay” or a “lesbian” or “LGBTQ” or whatever. So I think probably a lot of people do assume I am bisexual because I was in a long-term relationship with a man, and that is on the public record. But people making that assumption about me doesn’t bother me at all and it would not an unreasonable assumption to make.

My point is I don’t feel like I’m engaged in some homosexual vs bisexual or lesbian vs bi woman battle. That seems to be more your lens than mine and you’re projecting it on me. I view same-sex attraction as one thing with different strains. I view the sameness before the differences. I recognize that we have overlapping interests and experiences but not identical ones. I want there to be some semblance of LGB solidarity that exists independent of gender identity. That’s why I’m here. To learn about what others are going through.

I’m willing to listen, and I don’t apply different standards to people in here based on their sexual orientation but sometimes that information is helpful in understanding where they’re coming from, and potential biases, and blindspots.

But I do know why I found a number of your comments notable and that was because you didn’t seem to care or understand how [insert emotion here] it is for people to tell us homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and how absurd that feels based on our own life experiences. I initially noticed it when you tried to call me out for suggesting that a person who was literally preaching to us that he is attracted to both sexes but chooses to be with one for moral reasons and that therefore we must be attracted to both sexes too and that our homosexuality was inherently a choice, is bisexual.

[–]firemonke8brown gay 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Stonewall's homophobia is showing. How long till most of the "gays" are actually heterosexual?? I think its good that the support for Stonewall is getting institutionally reduced, woke homophobia doesn't need institutional support

[–]hufflepuff-poet 17 insightful - 5 fun17 insightful - 4 fun18 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

Women who have sex with gay men=?!?!?!🤔🤡😭🤯

[–]Chunkeeguy[S] 10 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

Straight is the new gay

[–]GatitoMalo 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

[–]usehername 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That was hilarious lmao. He's right: objectively, gay sex is way more masculine.

[–]firemonke8brown gay 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

absolute clown world

[–]TumbleweedFireflies🍷 your ol' drunk mod 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

The full thread: https://twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1405199103496175619

Twitter isn't pleased.

[–]Chunkeeguy[S] 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

When are those crusading white knight ladykillers Ben Cohen, David Paisley, Benjamin Butterworth and Owen Jones going to come to Stonewall's defence?

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Owen Jones would probably defend this.

[–]Chunkeeguy[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

All four of the grovelling worms would

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To play the devil’s advocate, there are gay men who are deeply closeted so they get married to women and occasionally have sex with them just to have babies or convince themselves to like it, hoping it would become an acquired taste. It’s a tragedy, but it does happen.

That being said, there are bisexual men out there who insist that they are gay, and they sleep with women. And some people genuinely believe that these obviously bisexual men are gay, because they see being gay as a personality, or think that simply being attracted to men is enough to make you gay, or they think that gay men are sexual deviants who would sleep with anything that moves. There was a miniseries called Bob and Rose, where a “gay” man falls in love with and marries a woman. Obviously he’s bisexual, but the character and the show in general insist that he’s still a gay man who “loves his wife for her personality” and some other bullshit. No. If a gay man truly loved a woman for her personality, they’d be best friends or he’d treat her like she’s his sister. If you’re bisexual, just come out and be done with it, and if you’re gay, then you have no desire for the opposite sex whatsoever.

[–]GatitoMalo 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Public health as a discipline has been struggling with this for ages. Identities and behavior just not matching.

"I only spend maybe one, two hours tops out of my week pursuing sex with men. The rest of the week, I have a wife, kids, a white picket fence, I'm a respectable member of my church. I have a dog and a good job. I'm not a homosexual." (This paraphrased anecdote collected prior to bisexuality as a salient identity.)

For public health, identity, desire, sociopolitics be damned, it's about the sort of sex you have with the different sexes. MSM: Men who have sex with men is a term they've been using for ages. It's gotten a bit long, recently I read a paper where the cohort was BMSMW. I.e. behaviorally bisexual black men. They manage to have lots of same-sex sex but maintain a heterosexual identity. It's pretty fascinating.

Of course, trans came along and upended the entire table. TWAW and all that. It might be "heterosexual sex" to some GAMP muppet, but as far as STI's are concerned? Very gay.

[–]hufflepuff-poet 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Straight men don't spend even one hour of their lives pursuing gay male sex (unless it's part of their fetish, re:autogynephiles/AGP, transbians who date each other--thank goodness!!)

Internalized homophobia is a helluva drug.

I hope all LGB people can live authentically with whatever degree of same-sex attraction they have one day and not have to pretend to be "100% totally straight" or the opposite sex! Let LGB people just live and stop telling us we have to change our sexuality or our birth sex!!

[–]millicentfawcett 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I either watched or read something a while back that featured a women who I think was a founding member of the GLF or Stonewall (maybe both?). She's not very high profile compared to the founding men but she is currently a TRA. She was talking about HIV and the lack of acknowledgement that lesbians in the community were at risk because some of them slept with gay men. It was a very old interview so she meant lesbians in the true sense and she was referencing the height of the AIDs crisis. It's the only time I've heard someone bring that up and I don't know how true it is, she inferred that it was taboo but more common place that people realised.

I wonder if that is the sort of thinking behind the statement or at least part of it? I can't remember where it was to link to but it stuck in my mind because the idea of gay men and lesbian women having sex with each other out of comfort or convenience hadn't ever occurred to me. I wasn't an adult in the 80s/90s and I don't move in those circles so I still don't know what to make of it.

[–]PatsyStone🚔Bisexual Sheriff 🤠 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There have always been lavender marriages and bearding relationships. Not sure how common they were by the 80s. My thought would be that they mostly happened in subcultures: Mormons, Evangelicals, ethnic communities, Muslims, etc.

If you add up a couple of marriages and fake relationships from each conservative subculture in a large city you can start to reach dozens and dozens of couples. If there are fifty lesbians in NYC in the 90s sleeping with gay men- there's your transmission risk.

I honestly don't believe that, though. I wasn't alive then so who knows.

[–]millicentfawcett 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm familiar with lavender marriages and bearding but I got the impression she was talking more about a 'friends with benefits' type situation. As you say though, who knows? I have no way of verifying what's true or isn't.

[–]Preachy_Jerk 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

the idea of gay men and lesbian women having sex with each other out of comfort or convenience

This is anecdotal but from what I've read, quaaludes were extremely popular back then, and many people find that they make you insatiably horny and willing to try anything. I can't remember where, but I've definitely read an account by a gay guy who would have sex with his female FWB when, and only when he was under the influence of methaqualone.

I can also imagine that everyone was a lot more sexually open in the 1970s, when it seemed like most STIs were curable with antibiotics.

Dang, now I want to go on the dark web and get some quaaludes.

[–]MidwestDude 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Probably means women who sleep with men who are on the DL?

[–]Chunkeeguy[S] 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

It's Stonewall so I doubt that. Gay men who don't want to fuck women are transphobic according to them.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, but Stonewall normally insists that these women are men. Could have been a Freudian slip.

[–]usehername 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Words mean whatever keeps the donations flowing.

[–]Rage-Xion 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Disgusting. That's pretty much corrective rape.