DiscussionHow often do you hear other LGB people (that you know in real life) encourage stereotypes or insults about LGB people?

submitted by reluctant_commenter from self.LGBDropTheT

Title. Something of a rant/discussion.

There are a lot of people online who identify as LGBT who are happy to repeat stereotypes about and bash lesbian/gay/bisexual people, of course, but I actually see this behavior a lot IRL, too, among the handful of LGB people I know. One example that prompted me to make this post is that last week, I was hanging out with a couple friends and some acquaintances (who are friends with my friends). During conversation, one of them, a woman who I know is same sex attracted, told another person that "lesbians dress like basic white boys" and then the two of them started talking about how lesbians have terrible fashion choices. I was surprised and disturbed by how ready both people were-- this gay woman, and the straight guy she was talking to-- to bash lesbians.

That's just one example, but I've seen this multiple times recently (also about gay men, not just lesbians). For context, these were both adults in their late 20s/early 30s who identify as politically liberal, not religious conservative or anything.

Anyone else know people like this or have similar experiences? And, any idea why some LGB people are happy to bash their own demographic...?

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[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I wonder if might have just been in jest?

If a lesbian said something similar to me I'd probably be much more willing to 'go along with it' than if a straight woman (or indeed a man) came out with something like that. In-groups can make jokes or unflattering observations about themselves in ways that 'outsiders' never could.

Goodness knows I've made my fair share of 'homophobic' jokes about the behaviour / appearance / speech etc. of other gay men, and so have other gay men I've known. I've known lesbians as well who've said unflattering things about lesbians (or women as a whole) which, in the mouth of a straight man, would be very problematic.

The closest analogue that I can think of would be something like speaking ill of other peoples' countries. I know the UK is not perfect; we have a lot of problems and there is much progress left to be made. I can sit with my friends and pick holes in the government and any number of other things until the cows come home. When an American weighs in and gives it the old LoL tEa AnD BaD TeETh it takes on another dimension: Who are you to criticise anything about anything?

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It might have been, that's true, although I'm inclined to wonder because this is someone who likes to call lesbians "tops" and "bottoms" and self-identifies in a non-joking way with other stereotypes.

You bring up a good point about in-group jokes/bashing; I think it's pretty common and can just be another way of poking a little fun at reality. Perhaps my acquaintance was doing just that. The trouble I have with such stereotyping is that currently, a lot of people who identify as "gay transmen" or "lesbian transwomen" seem to be doing so on the basis of such stereotypes about LGB people. Except they genuinely believe they are "gay" BECAUSE they strive to fit those stereotypes. For example, a "butch transwoman" man on Tumblr and Reddit might say something like, "I am a lumberjack lesbian," a stereotype that actual lesbians might joke about amongst themselves. LGB people affirming and encouraging stereotyping of LGB people might encourage more people to identify as "transgender and gay," when really, the only thing that makes you gay is same sex attraction. I'm not sure what the ideal balance is to strike; people should be able to make jokes but I worry that reinforcing such stereotypes adds fuel to the transgender trend.

The closest analogue that I can think of would be something like speaking ill of other peoples' countries. I know the UK is not perfect; we have a lot of problems and there is much progress left to be made. I can sit with my friends and pick holes in the government and any number of other things until the cows come home. When an American weighs in and gives it the old LoL tEa AnD BaD TeETh it takes on another dimension: Who are you to criticise anything about anything?

That's a good comparison. I had a similar reaction to the person she was talking with making the same jokes.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

When I was growing up, 'peder' (gay man), 'pederast' (gay-like or behaving in a gay-like manner, and yes in Serbia, the word for gay comes from pederast, or pedophile, so there's that association as well over there), and 'peša' (a diminutive version for 'peder') were terms thrown around my household, especially by my mother.

It was generally used to insult men who did not fit the stereotype for straight men, had some kind of flaw about them, or behave in a way that is different or not acceptable for men, therefore making them lesser 'peders'. I used to use it quite often when I was younger, not realising the implications behind it, and had to learn to not use it even though our family and family friends often did.

However, there isn't an equivalent for women or lesbians. Yes, 'lesbika', when used to describe a woman, is usually said as an insult rather than a descriptor, but it's certainly not as widespread or common as the different ways you can describe men as 'peders'.

My mother will occasionally call men 'peders' and I'll always call her out on it, so thankfully she's improved, but my Serbian family/ family friends still use it and it's awful to hear.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wow, that is extra tough having that root of the world literally be linked to pedophilia. I'm glad your mom was able to change, but hearing so many people still say that is rough.

[–]TransspeciesUnicornI sexually identify as a mythical sparkly equine 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

a woman who I know is same sex attracted, told another person that "lesbians dress like basic white boys" and then the two of them started talking about how lesbians have terrible fashion choices.

Yeah, I'd personally rather wear clothes that are practical and comfortable. As do many other lesbians, from what I've seen. How is that bad? I think it's great that many of us lesbians dress how we want. We don't spend our lives tying ourselves in knots over fashion and constantly worrying about how we look the way many other women do. Sorry I don't want to spend three hours a day applying make-up and emptying my wallet to update my wardrobe every time a new fashion trend comes along?

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

"lesbians dress like basic white boys" and then the two of them started talking about how lesbians have terrible fashion choices. I was surprised and disturbed by how ready both people were-- this gay woman, and the straight guy she was talking to-- to bash lesbians.

Let people live, damn.

That's jarring to have people close to a community throwing casual derision around like they aren't talking about women they know personally. I'd suspect given the casual racial and class prejudice she also displayed she harbors derision toward multiple groups, but you know her and I don't.

There's a difference between making in jokes with people you're close to and bashing them. They may have thought they were showing off doing an insider thing. We belong, look how well we know lesbians. Saying lesbians dress badly wasn't even fresh in the 90s, though.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's jarring to have people close to a community throwing casual derision around like they aren't talking about women they know personally.

EXACTLY. They are talking about women they know. The ironic part is, I would imagine the same people would be pretty offended if I made a similar generalization about race or ethnicity, and understandably so, yet their awareness doesn't seem to extend to LGB people.

I'd suspect given the casual racial and class prejudice she also displayed she harbors derision toward multiple groups, but you know her and I don't.

No, that is definitely a relevant observation; I didn't think much about that initially but I would say that the way you put it is accurate, she definitely "harbors derision towards multiple groups."

Saying lesbians dress badly wasn't even fresh in the 90s, though.

Hahaha yeah. I feel like I've heard so many variants of this insult in different settings... it kind of sounds to me like an insult a child would throw.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Derision is an old, old wooden ship that your friend harbors ☺️

[–]censorshipment 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

I don't consider that bashing... lol sounds like they were talking about one demographic of lesbians.

I definitely talk a lot of shit about lesbians in general... but that's because I pay more attention to us than I pay to other groups. It is what it is.

I am a firm believer in talking shit about your own people.

I've a white lesbian friend on Reddit (I know you said irl but whatever) who talks mad shit about white people... I love her to death. Kindred spirits.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think most people tend to feel more free to bash their own race/orientation/demographic, because I guess then they don't feel like they are speaking out of turn. Because one usually feels more restricted to do it to groups other than their own, especially if they are liberal or among other liberals.

I think one should be allowed to bash anyone they think is stupid, but they should also be prepared to defend or apologize for their position, because they might just end up being the one who is stupid.

Also, some people are perhaps very self-hating of their own race/orientation/demographic and that's why they do it. It's truly a sight to behold when a person like this really gets going. Because then the slurs and insults can really fly and no one seems to be able to stop them as they burn everthing to a cinders. Sometimes they really just need a hug irl Good Will Hunting style and I'm not joking about that.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think most people tend to feel more free to bash their own race/orientation/demographic, because I guess then they don't feel like they are speaking out of turn. Because one usually feels more restricted to do it to groups other than their own, especially if they are liberal or among other liberals.

Yeah, that is a pretty common norm I think, at least in my area.

I think one should be allowed to bash anyone they think is stupid, but they should also be prepared to defend or apologize for their position, because they might just end up being the one who is stupid.

Agreed. I think this is how it tends to work on this sub, and I kind of wish it went more like this in real life; often, you have to balance such comments (or challenges to comments) with the power dynamics of various relationships you have with people.

Also, some people are perhaps very self-hating of their own race/orientation/demographic and that's why they do it. It's truly a sight to behold when a person like this really gets going. Because then the slurs and insults can really fly and no one seems to be able to stop them as they burn everthing to a cinders. Sometimes they really just need a hug irl Good Will Hunting style and I'm not joking about that.

Yup, I know what you mean, I've seen this before as well.