LGB ErasureJulie Bindel: There's no gay gene – and I love the idea I chose to be a lesbian

submitted by yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" from newstatesman.com

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[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Her support for political lesbianism is one thing that she could be disputed on, but she does not appear to be a political lesbian. I can say she absolutely does not have a typical bisexual experience or presentation. That is something I can speak on definitively.

I will say the same thing about her account of her experience of being a lesbian being completely foreign and alien. The fact that she thinks that women who have attraction to men can “choose” to be a lesbian and attracted to women is absurd and completely detached from the experience of being a lesbian. Like, hey, I like that I like women because I think women are hot. I also know that I didn’t choose to. It’s just who my body responds to.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I think she's operating off of an older definition of lesbianism than you are. She seems to think lesbian= woman who exclusively partners with other women. This seems to be a common belief among Boomer lesbians.

The adolescence she describes sounds proto-typically lesbian to me. I've known many woman who came of age in a similar way to her. No bisexuals I know of were denying boys attention and thought they were lesbians at 15.

Political lesbianism as far as I can tell is totally separate from homosexuality, so it's apples to oranges.

My point being that the community changed around 2014 when this was written and Bindel was addressing this to younger lesbians basically telling you you're wrong. That's definitely the tone I picked up.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The adolescence she describes sounds proto-typically lesbian to me. I've known many woman who came of age in a similar way to her. No bisexuals I know of were denying boys attention and thought they were lesbians at 15.

Even if she is actually lesbian, I think it's pretty ridiculous of her to go around suggesting that "sexual orientation is a choice" and that she "chose to be a lesbian."

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I mean, that sounds like bullshit to me too. I've said it already upthread, but I think she's operating off of an older definition of lesbianism that has gone by the wayside because of societal changes.

This is a dispute within the lesbian community about self-definiton. The go-to method of resolving inter-lesbian disputes seem to be to declare the offending lesbian to be a bisexual. Julie Bindel shows absolutely no signs or symptoms of being bisexual.

I think this disagreement is based on class differences and generational differences between modern lesbians who work professional jobs and a woman who came of age in a time when lesbianism was inherently subversive and revolutionary.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Which part is bullshit? That she thinks "sexual orientation is a choice"? She literally said that herself, in the article. One can agree with the idea or not, but she said it, and has said it many times before.

Julie Bindel shows absolutely no signs or symptoms of being bisexual.

I did not say Julie Bindel was bisexual. I said, even if she is lesbian, I don't think she should have written an article saying that "sexual orientation is a choice" and similar beliefs. That claim is anti-scientific and I would say it harms all LGB people.

The go-to method of resolving inter-lesbian disputes seem to be to declare the offending lesbian to be a bisexual.

This is a pretty broad generalization, and I'm not sure it's fair to make. I've seen it on s/lesbians before, I will say, which is part of why I stopped spending time there, but that sub is hardly a representative sample of ALL lesbian women, lol.

I think you're missing an important point, though: some straight women have a vested interest in lying about their sexual orientation and saying that they are "lesbian." This behavior comes from a belief system, it's well-documented, and Julie Bindel is a fervent believer in that ideology. So, someone suggesting, "Hey, this person who says that they think sexual orientation is a choice, might have just decided to call themselves lesbian even if they actually are not," is a logical possibility to raise.

I do get bothered when people immediately assume that some far-left queer theorist or radfem saying homophobic remarks must be bisexual. Statistically speaking, it is way more likely that a person lying about being LGB is actually heterosexual, not bisexual. For some people, there may be some negative bias going on there.

in a time when lesbianism was inherently subversive and revolutionary.

Homosexuality, i.e. exclusive same-sex attraction, is simply a feature of nature, and it's found in many other animals besides human beings. Depending on the historical context, it has sometimes been and will probably be in the future called "subversive" or "revolutionary," but that still doesn't change what the objective phenomenon is. Julie Bindel is someone who holds the unsubstantiated belief that "homosexuality is a choice," and at the end of the day, she's still spreading misinformation about same-sex attraction regardless of whoever she personally is attracted to.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Which part is bullshit? That she thinks "sexual orientation is a choice"?

I was agreeing with you that saying sexual orientation is a choice is bullshit. Bindel seems to think lesbianism is a choice separate from experiencing homosexual attraction. She is operating on an old definition of lesbian which is not used anymore (I think.)

I did not say that Julie Bindel was bisexual.

The comment you responded to was a response from me to a comment by the OP in which she accused Bindel of being bisexual. The entire point of my comment was to say Bindel is not bisexual and to offer a separate read on the situation. I was reiterating my point from the comment you responded to.

This is a pretty broad generalization, and I'm not sure it's fair to make.

I've seen it so much online that it's absolutely a feature of online gay communities. I think it's reflective of groupthink and anonymity in online groups. I also think it reflects that pattern of purity spiraling that small communities go through when placed under extreme stress. The threat of being labeled bisexual also gets used in real life gay communities to enforce conformity. It's understood that you avoid bisexual-type behavior if you can.

To reiterate my other point, I don't think Julie Bindel is lying about being a lesbian. I think she dates back to another time prior to the sexual revolution and has not adapted to social changes.

Honestly, the consequences of being declared not gay or so severe at her age it's what's driving her to dig her heels in. She has nowhere to go if she gets shunned. Ask me how little concern bisexual women are given by lesbians. Not being a lesbian means not mattering.

You're never going to dispute her claims without understanding why she's making them, and I'm not convinced she's actually harming any of you. None of you have lost a job, been homeless, been raped, been forced into a marriage because of anything Julie Bindel said or did. She's helped all of you a lot.

Unless there's some other issue not being mentioned.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I was agreeing with you that saying sexual orientation is a choice is bullshit.

Ah, gotcha.

She is operating on an old definition of lesbian which is not used anymore (I think.)

Unfortunately, it is being used quite frequently-- by trans rights activists, of course, but also by some women who identify as gender-critical such as her and also potentially Kathleen Stock. Don't get me wrong, I have heard that WAY more from both religious conservatives and trans rights activists! (Partly because there are just more TRAs and conservative homophobes than there are radfems, period.) But that belief is foundational to many radical feminist claims, as well.

The comment you responded to was a response from me to a comment by the OP in which she accused Bindel of being bisexual.

It was? I thought YSTT said this:

I will say the same thing about her account of her experience of being a lesbian being completely foreign and alien. The fact that she thinks that women who have attraction to men can “choose” to be a lesbian and attracted to women is absurd and completely detached from the experience of being a lesbian. Like, hey, I like that I like women because I think women are hot. I also know that I didn’t choose to. It’s just who my body responds to.

Doesn't sound like she's saying that Bindel is bisexual, but just that her experience is not personally relatable. I saw elsewhere in the thread people suggesting that Bindel was bisexual, however.

The threat of being labeled bisexual also gets used in real life gay communities to enforce conformity. It's understood that you avoid bisexual-type behavior if you can.

I will admit, I know less about the experience of bisexual men in GB men's communities; there seems to be an extra layer of pressure on bisexual men to identify as homosexual. I do think it's worth observing, though, that it would be oversimplification to suggest that having a healthy-- but polite!-- degree of skepticism regarding the sexual orientation of a person who spouts homophobic comments, is just borne out of paranoia (not saying you said this, but I've seen people suggest it before). I'd call it reasonable to have a measure of skepticism in such cases because LGB people are an invisible minority, and some relatively-sizeable proportion of humans are going to lie about their sexual orientation, for various reasons (sometimes political; sometimes just psychopathological).

She has nowhere to go if she gets shunned.

I don't think she should get shunned, even if she were straight and making shit up, I just think she should be honest if she wants to represent LGB people, and her saying "I chose to be a lesbian and you can too" is really dishonest, at multiple levels.

Ask me how little concern bisexual women are given by lesbians. Not being a lesbian means not mattering.

I think some self-identified lesbian women choose to unfairly take out their anger on bisexual women; however, what I'm talking about with Julie Bindel is much bigger than lesbian-bisexual relations.

You're never going to dispute her claims without understanding why she's making them, and I'm not convinced she's actually harming any of you. None of you have lost a job, been homeless, been raped, been forced into a marriage because of anything Julie Bindel said or did. She's helped all of you a lot.

No fucking way has she helped me if she's sitting there saying "Homosexuality is a choice!" Look, I appreciate you trying to take the positive out of the situation and think of generational differences, but this belief Julie Bindel is choosing to broadcast DOES end up increasing the risk of harmful outcomes that LGB people face such as homelessness, sexual assault, being pressured into heterosexual relationships, etc. That is NOT helpful at all. In fact, this belief she's pushing-- "sexual orientation is a choice!"-- is exactly what made conservative religious bigots think that gay conversion therapy worked! Julie Bindel did not personally make me homeless or rape me, lmao, but growing up I was was forced to stay in the closet or risk undergoing additional trauma because I was surrounded by people who believed "sexual orientation is a choice" just like Julie Bindel does.

I imagine Julie Bindel believes she is helping LGB people, I'm not trying to say she's evil or something, maybe she's a lovely person to talk to, but this is a harmful choice she's making and it does have consequences for LGB people.

Unless there's some other issue not being mentioned.

The issue that I've mentioned is that some women-- mostly straight, not bisexual!-- think it's fun to play pretend and say they "chose" to be lesbians, and they do this because they believe in shitty, homophobic stereotypes about lesbians: "I want to be a big, mean lesbian, so I'll choose to be one!" I have, actually, met a couple people like that online, and one in real life (although the real-life one was actually a TRA, not a radical feminist). And I'm fucking SICK of the women doing that, it's so homophobic. They speak over actual LGB people and reinforce stereotypes. And no, I do not blame bisexual women for that; most of the women who do that are likely to be straight.

If you see someone bashing bisexuals, please feel free to message me and I'll report/argue with them, this is an all-LGB community and it's important to be respectful of everyone here. But, when I criticize Julie Bindel here, I am not criticizing bisexuality or bisexuals (and I have no desire to).

edit: Sorry this comment is so long, I didn't realize it was til I posted it lol. I care a lot about when people who push the good ol' "you can just choose to be gay" falsehood because it's so common and also so unscientific. I thought maybe I would not have to hear it so much after separating myself from some homophobic conservative people, and now I hear it from liberals all the time... and it's extra frustrating to hear it from a person who claims to represent LGB people.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That was a very long post but I appreciate that you took the time to think it through and write back to me.

I feel like I've been roped into defending a woman I don't even agree with, ultimately it's not my call whether she's a lesbian or not. The idea that homosexuality is a choice is certainly harmful.

I jumped in because the train of double standards about bisexual identity had started rolling and I felt like it was a battle to fight.

You can't diagnose non-conformist gay people as bisexual against their will based on implications taken from their attitudes (I know you weren't doing this! Several other people were.)

Most of those people are also regulars on the threads that mock and deride bisexual women who have only had heterosexual relationships, apparently unaware or not caring that those women fall under the same standard that a secretly bisexual lesbian theoretically would.

So... I wanted to tell them they were wrong and to knock it off. My opinion of Julie Bindel really isn't relevant. I've never liked radfems anyway.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You can't diagnose non-conformist gay people as bisexual against their will based on implications taken from their attitudes (I know you weren't doing this! Several other people were.)

I completely agree. I do think it's strange that some people jump to this very fast when there may be multiple other reasonable and likely explanations for someone's behavior besides being bisexual.

My opinion of Julie Bindel really isn't relevant.

I don't think your opinion is irrelevant! I only mean to point out some history behind her actions, and why I (and many other people here, it seems) are frustrated with her actions.

Thanks for reading my response. I think we probably agree on a lot more than disagree, and simultaneously, it is hard not to get into heated discussions on these topics, lol. There is so much censorship going on around LGB topics online, and I think it's probably safe to say that the majority of us on this sub have few (if any) people we can talk to IRL about LGB topics. I'm surrounded by militant pro- gender identity people, myself, and the isolation that comes from knowing many people in my community would hate me like poison if they knew my beliefs is frustrating; it's hard sometimes to not bring that weight to conversations on this sub.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I bring a whole different weight and raw spots into convos 😉 I also can't talk to people in real life about LGB topics in full, only piecemeal- one topic with this person I know isn't afraid of it, that topic with the person who's a little less mainstream... etc.

I try to pick my battles and only argue with people when something concrete can be discussed.

It's hard not to veer off into fights on this sub just based on the fact that we're all so different from each other, in more ways than just our orientations. I feel like we get our wires crossed a lot without realizing it.

I think I've told you this before, but you always go out of your way to be respectful and try to understand where bisexuals are coming from and I appreciate it. It means a lot.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No bisexuals I know of were denying boys attention and thought they were lesbians at 15.

Hmm, I guess that passage stuck out to me as well. I mean- it could really just be her politics there too, but that would also be a bit odd, now that I think about it. Maybe she's both? Idk either way.