LGB ErasureJulie Bindel: There's no gay gene – and I love the idea I chose to be a lesbian

submitted by yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" from newstatesman.com

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[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

This article is from July 2014. What a quaint time. As many of you know, Julie Bindel is a prominent voice in the radical feminist movement and critic of gender ideology. But her thought process here underscores why her political lesbianism is just as much (or almost as much) of an appropriation of female homosexuality as transbianism. This gets reflected back onto us because she refuses to recognize that maybe just maybe there are women who are not like her who just happen to be attracted to women exclusively without it being a political statement or statement about men or an active rejection of men. This contributes to every actual lesbian getting labeled a TERF for having the audacity to be openly homosexual.

Not to mention, she sounds like an alien outsider who I can in no way relate to. She cannot advocate for the rights of young lesbians if she doesn’t even recognize that natural exclusive same-sex attraction exists. She cannot both advocate for us and our needs while denying our existence.

I find it sad how lesbians are never represented by actual lesbians. I can’t even extricate our own lesbian heritage from this misandrist political movement. I can’t relate to nonsense about “performing femininity” and butch and femme “identities.” It just comes across mostly as narcissistic projection.

And while I do appreciate the advent of the Lesbian and Gay News, it seems that nearly all content from lesbians and bisexual females is based in political lesbianism/FEBFem. It’s incredibly alienating and also makes it so that there is no room for any lesbian positivity on there. Because their entire notion of lesbianism is based on being “anti” things and not just being female while happening to only be attracted to other women. I have nothing in common with her.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

she refuses to recognize that maybe just maybe there are women who are not like her who just happen to be attracted to women exclusively without it being a political statement or statement about men or an active rejection of men.

Sexuality is just a biological drive, it has nothing to do with what kind of politics, values, etc you should have. She seems to tie her feminism to her lesbianism when they are unrelated. Probably why GLF went under

[–]reluctant_commenter 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Not to mention, she sounds like an alien outsider who I can in no way relate to. She cannot advocate for the rights of young lesbians if she doesn’t even recognize that natural exclusive same-sex attraction exists. She cannot both advocate for us and our needs while denying our existence.

I COMPLETELY agree. I could not agree more. I am not a mind reader, I cannot say whether or not Julie Bindel is actually same-sex attracted; but regardless of whether she is exclusively same sex attracted or not, many young LGB people are, and she is doing a terrible job of representing us.

I find it sad how lesbians are never represented by actual lesbians. I can’t even extricate our own lesbian heritage from this misandrist political movement. I can’t relate to nonsense about “performing femininity” and butch and femme “identities.” It just comes across mostly as narcissistic projection.

Also completely agree. I don't mind so much if feminists want to sit there and theorize about how one's experience of sexism might be different if one were same-sex-attracted versus not; I think that's an interesting discussion to be had. But that discussion can't just be had in a vacuum, because many feminists-- be it TQ+ liberal feminists, or radical feminists-- assume that one can choose to be same-sex attracted and thus force their way in to an invisible minority group and speak over its members.

I am so glad you posted about this. I have stopped reading most "Lesbian & Gay News" articles because of the homophobic angle in some of their articles. I already see enough of the same bullshit spouted by TQ+ activists. (I do appreciate the legal articles though, those tend to stay pretty on-topic.) And I'm not sure how much overlap there is between LGN and LGB Alliance, but there seems to be some substantial amount of overlap, which concerns me.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am so glad you posted about this. I have stopped reading most "Lesbian & Gay News" articles because of the homophobic angle in some of their articles. I already see enough of the same bullshit spouted by TQ+ activists.

Which ones tipped you over the edge? Just the radfem ones or others too?

(I do appreciate the legal articles though, those tend to stay pretty on-topic.)

Dennis Kavanaugh, the legal commentator for LGN also has a blog. He does provide quality legal analysis. His articles are my favorite too.

And I'm not sure how much overlap there is between LGN and LGB Alliance, but there seems to be some substantial amount of overlap, which concerns me.

I have wondered this too. I have been watching LGB Alliance though and I don’t think I’ve seen evidence yet that it is run by political lesbians but I also don’t expect them to call out political lesbians when they are focused on trying to gather a base of support.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Which ones tipped you over the edge? Just the radfem ones or others too?

Mostly just the radfem ones. I can dig up a couple examples if you're interested.

Dennis Kavanaugh, the legal commentator for LGN also has a blog. He does provide quality legal analysis. His articles are my favorite too.

Did not know that, will take a look!

I have wondered this too. I have been watching LGB Alliance though and I don’t think I’ve seen evidence yet that it is run by political lesbians

Apart from the Kathleen Stock connection, I'm not sure either, but I think the possibility's concerning and we ought to keep an eye out for it. I'm actually really glad to see that a lot of other people on this thread share similar concerns, I wasn't sure if it was just us.

but I also don’t expect them to call out political lesbians when they are focused on trying to gather a base of support.

Agreed, although I hope they would if given the chance. Have you seen much by LGB Fight Back? They seem to strike a noticeably different tone from LGB Alliance's.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I'm confused by political lesbians. Are they bi women who have decided not to date men? Alternatively, are these straight women who are having relationships and sex with other women, or are they straight, celibate women who like to rant about how theyre lesbians and hate men?

The only political lesbian I have met was a lesbian lesbian, who was very into her weird Marxist lesbian politics. A small sample size, so I'm intrigued about what motivates these women.

[–]usehername 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not sure about their motivations but:

Are they bi women who have decided not to date men?

Women like that generally call themselves FEBfems (female-exclusive bisexual females), but yeah, it's possible that some of them (political lesbians) are really bi women (more likely) or even lesbians (less likely) who have convinced themselves that they chose to be attracted to women.

A political lesbian is a woman who believes she has "chosen to become a lesbian" for political reasons.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

They're straight celibate women who live with each other. I've never met one in person, they seem rarer than hen's teeth.

Bisexuals are uninvolved in this. It's rare for a bisexual woman to be so dedicated a feminist that she would commit her entire lifestyle to it. Feminism is harsh on bisexual women.

This idea that Marxist feminists are anti-lesbian is a new one to me. They used to mostly be lesbians. This seems to be a dispute between bourgeois lesbians and a Marxist lesbian over self-definition. It's a class and political disagreement.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

they seem rarer than hen's teeth.

They're not that rare, at least in the media. Some of them post frequently on the "Lesbian & Gay News" website that is frequently shared on this sub! Examples:

  • Julie Bindel

  • Sheila Jeffreys

  • Kathleen Stock -- the other two have come out as explicitly saying "sexual orientation is a choice," but she has implicitly suggested it as well. See this recent discussion post, e.g. this comment

And Kathleen Stock just got added as a trustee to LGB Alliance. So there are some self-identified "political lesbians" for you. And they are trying to frame themselves as "LGB leaders". Seems a little concerning to me, but I'm happy to hear arguments otherwise.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I was talking about the general population in the U.S. I was an active gender critical feminist before 2016 and I never saw or heard of one in that subculture either.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'd be curious about numbers of the general population in the US, but I'm not aware of any survey data like that, and it'd probably be difficult to get accurate numbers even if there were; they seem more unpopular in the US than in some other countries, such as the UK, and people might be afraid of responding to such a survey.

Julie Bindel and Sheila Jeffreys are both radical feminists/GC, but I don't know how well-known they are in GC circles.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, they're both really well known but they're about it as far as political lesbians go. I have a vague memory there were more in the seventies but radical feminists don't seem to reference them much. It was never promoted or encouraged that I can remember and I remember no posters who claimed to be political lesbians.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

It's not my community, so my opinion is only worth so much, but saying Julie Bindel isn't a lesbian is totally absurd.

Her support for political lesbianism is one thing that she could be disputed on, but she does not appear to be a political lesbian. I can say she absolutely does not have a typical bisexual experience or presentation. That is something I can speak on definitively.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Her support for political lesbianism is one thing that she could be disputed on, but she does not appear to be a political lesbian. I can say she absolutely does not have a typical bisexual experience or presentation. That is something I can speak on definitively.

I will say the same thing about her account of her experience of being a lesbian being completely foreign and alien. The fact that she thinks that women who have attraction to men can “choose” to be a lesbian and attracted to women is absurd and completely detached from the experience of being a lesbian. Like, hey, I like that I like women because I think women are hot. I also know that I didn’t choose to. It’s just who my body responds to.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I think she's operating off of an older definition of lesbianism than you are. She seems to think lesbian= woman who exclusively partners with other women. This seems to be a common belief among Boomer lesbians.

The adolescence she describes sounds proto-typically lesbian to me. I've known many woman who came of age in a similar way to her. No bisexuals I know of were denying boys attention and thought they were lesbians at 15.

Political lesbianism as far as I can tell is totally separate from homosexuality, so it's apples to oranges.

My point being that the community changed around 2014 when this was written and Bindel was addressing this to younger lesbians basically telling you you're wrong. That's definitely the tone I picked up.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The adolescence she describes sounds proto-typically lesbian to me. I've known many woman who came of age in a similar way to her. No bisexuals I know of were denying boys attention and thought they were lesbians at 15.

Even if she is actually lesbian, I think it's pretty ridiculous of her to go around suggesting that "sexual orientation is a choice" and that she "chose to be a lesbian."

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I mean, that sounds like bullshit to me too. I've said it already upthread, but I think she's operating off of an older definition of lesbianism that has gone by the wayside because of societal changes.

This is a dispute within the lesbian community about self-definiton. The go-to method of resolving inter-lesbian disputes seem to be to declare the offending lesbian to be a bisexual. Julie Bindel shows absolutely no signs or symptoms of being bisexual.

I think this disagreement is based on class differences and generational differences between modern lesbians who work professional jobs and a woman who came of age in a time when lesbianism was inherently subversive and revolutionary.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Which part is bullshit? That she thinks "sexual orientation is a choice"? She literally said that herself, in the article. One can agree with the idea or not, but she said it, and has said it many times before.

Julie Bindel shows absolutely no signs or symptoms of being bisexual.

I did not say Julie Bindel was bisexual. I said, even if she is lesbian, I don't think she should have written an article saying that "sexual orientation is a choice" and similar beliefs. That claim is anti-scientific and I would say it harms all LGB people.

The go-to method of resolving inter-lesbian disputes seem to be to declare the offending lesbian to be a bisexual.

This is a pretty broad generalization, and I'm not sure it's fair to make. I've seen it on s/lesbians before, I will say, which is part of why I stopped spending time there, but that sub is hardly a representative sample of ALL lesbian women, lol.

I think you're missing an important point, though: some straight women have a vested interest in lying about their sexual orientation and saying that they are "lesbian." This behavior comes from a belief system, it's well-documented, and Julie Bindel is a fervent believer in that ideology. So, someone suggesting, "Hey, this person who says that they think sexual orientation is a choice, might have just decided to call themselves lesbian even if they actually are not," is a logical possibility to raise.

I do get bothered when people immediately assume that some far-left queer theorist or radfem saying homophobic remarks must be bisexual. Statistically speaking, it is way more likely that a person lying about being LGB is actually heterosexual, not bisexual. For some people, there may be some negative bias going on there.

in a time when lesbianism was inherently subversive and revolutionary.

Homosexuality, i.e. exclusive same-sex attraction, is simply a feature of nature, and it's found in many other animals besides human beings. Depending on the historical context, it has sometimes been and will probably be in the future called "subversive" or "revolutionary," but that still doesn't change what the objective phenomenon is. Julie Bindel is someone who holds the unsubstantiated belief that "homosexuality is a choice," and at the end of the day, she's still spreading misinformation about same-sex attraction regardless of whoever she personally is attracted to.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Which part is bullshit? That she thinks "sexual orientation is a choice"?

I was agreeing with you that saying sexual orientation is a choice is bullshit. Bindel seems to think lesbianism is a choice separate from experiencing homosexual attraction. She is operating on an old definition of lesbian which is not used anymore (I think.)

I did not say that Julie Bindel was bisexual.

The comment you responded to was a response from me to a comment by the OP in which she accused Bindel of being bisexual. The entire point of my comment was to say Bindel is not bisexual and to offer a separate read on the situation. I was reiterating my point from the comment you responded to.

This is a pretty broad generalization, and I'm not sure it's fair to make.

I've seen it so much online that it's absolutely a feature of online gay communities. I think it's reflective of groupthink and anonymity in online groups. I also think it reflects that pattern of purity spiraling that small communities go through when placed under extreme stress. The threat of being labeled bisexual also gets used in real life gay communities to enforce conformity. It's understood that you avoid bisexual-type behavior if you can.

To reiterate my other point, I don't think Julie Bindel is lying about being a lesbian. I think she dates back to another time prior to the sexual revolution and has not adapted to social changes.

Honestly, the consequences of being declared not gay or so severe at her age it's what's driving her to dig her heels in. She has nowhere to go if she gets shunned. Ask me how little concern bisexual women are given by lesbians. Not being a lesbian means not mattering.

You're never going to dispute her claims without understanding why she's making them, and I'm not convinced she's actually harming any of you. None of you have lost a job, been homeless, been raped, been forced into a marriage because of anything Julie Bindel said or did. She's helped all of you a lot.

Unless there's some other issue not being mentioned.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I was agreeing with you that saying sexual orientation is a choice is bullshit.

Ah, gotcha.

She is operating on an old definition of lesbian which is not used anymore (I think.)

Unfortunately, it is being used quite frequently-- by trans rights activists, of course, but also by some women who identify as gender-critical such as her and also potentially Kathleen Stock. Don't get me wrong, I have heard that WAY more from both religious conservatives and trans rights activists! (Partly because there are just more TRAs and conservative homophobes than there are radfems, period.) But that belief is foundational to many radical feminist claims, as well.

The comment you responded to was a response from me to a comment by the OP in which she accused Bindel of being bisexual.

It was? I thought YSTT said this:

I will say the same thing about her account of her experience of being a lesbian being completely foreign and alien. The fact that she thinks that women who have attraction to men can “choose” to be a lesbian and attracted to women is absurd and completely detached from the experience of being a lesbian. Like, hey, I like that I like women because I think women are hot. I also know that I didn’t choose to. It’s just who my body responds to.

Doesn't sound like she's saying that Bindel is bisexual, but just that her experience is not personally relatable. I saw elsewhere in the thread people suggesting that Bindel was bisexual, however.

The threat of being labeled bisexual also gets used in real life gay communities to enforce conformity. It's understood that you avoid bisexual-type behavior if you can.

I will admit, I know less about the experience of bisexual men in GB men's communities; there seems to be an extra layer of pressure on bisexual men to identify as homosexual. I do think it's worth observing, though, that it would be oversimplification to suggest that having a healthy-- but polite!-- degree of skepticism regarding the sexual orientation of a person who spouts homophobic comments, is just borne out of paranoia (not saying you said this, but I've seen people suggest it before). I'd call it reasonable to have a measure of skepticism in such cases because LGB people are an invisible minority, and some relatively-sizeable proportion of humans are going to lie about their sexual orientation, for various reasons (sometimes political; sometimes just psychopathological).

She has nowhere to go if she gets shunned.

I don't think she should get shunned, even if she were straight and making shit up, I just think she should be honest if she wants to represent LGB people, and her saying "I chose to be a lesbian and you can too" is really dishonest, at multiple levels.

Ask me how little concern bisexual women are given by lesbians. Not being a lesbian means not mattering.

I think some self-identified lesbian women choose to unfairly take out their anger on bisexual women; however, what I'm talking about with Julie Bindel is much bigger than lesbian-bisexual relations.

You're never going to dispute her claims without understanding why she's making them, and I'm not convinced she's actually harming any of you. None of you have lost a job, been homeless, been raped, been forced into a marriage because of anything Julie Bindel said or did. She's helped all of you a lot.

No fucking way has she helped me if she's sitting there saying "Homosexuality is a choice!" Look, I appreciate you trying to take the positive out of the situation and think of generational differences, but this belief Julie Bindel is choosing to broadcast DOES end up increasing the risk of harmful outcomes that LGB people face such as homelessness, sexual assault, being pressured into heterosexual relationships, etc. That is NOT helpful at all. In fact, this belief she's pushing-- "sexual orientation is a choice!"-- is exactly what made conservative religious bigots think that gay conversion therapy worked! Julie Bindel did not personally make me homeless or rape me, lmao, but growing up I was was forced to stay in the closet or risk undergoing additional trauma because I was surrounded by people who believed "sexual orientation is a choice" just like Julie Bindel does.

I imagine Julie Bindel believes she is helping LGB people, I'm not trying to say she's evil or something, maybe she's a lovely person to talk to, but this is a harmful choice she's making and it does have consequences for LGB people.

Unless there's some other issue not being mentioned.

The issue that I've mentioned is that some women-- mostly straight, not bisexual!-- think it's fun to play pretend and say they "chose" to be lesbians, and they do this because they believe in shitty, homophobic stereotypes about lesbians: "I want to be a big, mean lesbian, so I'll choose to be one!" I have, actually, met a couple people like that online, and one in real life (although the real-life one was actually a TRA, not a radical feminist). And I'm fucking SICK of the women doing that, it's so homophobic. They speak over actual LGB people and reinforce stereotypes. And no, I do not blame bisexual women for that; most of the women who do that are likely to be straight.

If you see someone bashing bisexuals, please feel free to message me and I'll report/argue with them, this is an all-LGB community and it's important to be respectful of everyone here. But, when I criticize Julie Bindel here, I am not criticizing bisexuality or bisexuals (and I have no desire to).

edit: Sorry this comment is so long, I didn't realize it was til I posted it lol. I care a lot about when people who push the good ol' "you can just choose to be gay" falsehood because it's so common and also so unscientific. I thought maybe I would not have to hear it so much after separating myself from some homophobic conservative people, and now I hear it from liberals all the time... and it's extra frustrating to hear it from a person who claims to represent LGB people.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That was a very long post but I appreciate that you took the time to think it through and write back to me.

I feel like I've been roped into defending a woman I don't even agree with, ultimately it's not my call whether she's a lesbian or not. The idea that homosexuality is a choice is certainly harmful.

I jumped in because the train of double standards about bisexual identity had started rolling and I felt like it was a battle to fight.

You can't diagnose non-conformist gay people as bisexual against their will based on implications taken from their attitudes (I know you weren't doing this! Several other people were.)

Most of those people are also regulars on the threads that mock and deride bisexual women who have only had heterosexual relationships, apparently unaware or not caring that those women fall under the same standard that a secretly bisexual lesbian theoretically would.

So... I wanted to tell them they were wrong and to knock it off. My opinion of Julie Bindel really isn't relevant. I've never liked radfems anyway.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No bisexuals I know of were denying boys attention and thought they were lesbians at 15.

Hmm, I guess that passage stuck out to me as well. I mean- it could really just be her politics there too, but that would also be a bit odd, now that I think about it. Maybe she's both? Idk either way.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Bindel#Lesbianism,_marriage

"Bindel refers to herself as a political lesbian feminist."

Not a lesbian who is political or a feminist. A political lesbian. A qualifier on lesbian.

I read this by Bindel and I get the sense that her desires are strictly heterosexual:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090204041631/http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/30/women-gayrights

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

From the second link (article):

The publication of LYE was the one of the first times that the notion of sexuality as a choice had been publicly raised in the UK women's movement.

Fantastic. Some radical feminists helped popularize this particular piece of pseudoscience.

Yeah, I see what you mean when Julie Bindel says this:

Others, such as myself, found that the arguments in LYE spoke directly to feelings that had already been developing. Opponents of political lesbianism argue that "genuine" lesbians are motivated purely by lust towards women, rather than a decision to reject men and heterosexuality. For me, however, my lesbianism is intrinsically bound up with my feminist politics and my campaigning against sexual violence.

And, her "instrinsic sense" personal feelings are given more weight than any empirical evidence:

To me, political lesbianism continues to make intrinsic sense because it reinforces the idea that sexuality is a choice, and we are not destined to a particular fate because of our chromosomes.

And she ends with this entreaty:

Stop pretending you think lesbianism is an exclusive members' club, and join the ranks. I promise that you will not regret it.

What a fucking homophobic thing to say. Can we play a game of "TRA or radfem"? That literally reads like it's from the sidebar of r/actualtransbians.

Sorry to go off about this on your comment lol, I'm just amazed by this person's audacity to make up bullshit for her own personal ends. I didn't think she was that bad initially, but the more I read her writing, the more I'm disappointed.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

She studiously avoids mentioning sexual attraction so much it's impossible to tell who she wants.

The sexual history she gives sounds lesbian to me, I'm not sure what the benefit of redefining the identity of a woman who's been an out lesbian for more than 40 years is supposed to be.

This seems to boil down to a political disagreement between lesbians of different social classes over self-definition.

To me she's a lesbian in word and deed, you can't evaluate thought without engaging in some pretty fucked up behavior.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m with you, it is shitty behavior. Sometimes you’ve got to go wrestle in the muck and it ain’t that nice. I’m however not going to sit here on my hands and never challenge somebody’s identity. Or what that identity should be a membership of. That’s exactly how you end up where we are today with the T.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean that's good and all, I think she qualifies as a lesbian and the issue is related to class differences between lesbian.

Ops standard of lesbianism makes most homosexual women who lived before the 90s actually bisexual.