LGB ErasureJulie Bindel: There's no gay gene – and I love the idea I chose to be a lesbian

submitted by yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" from (newstatesman.com)

all 90 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Imagine approaching the concept of sexual orientation strictly from a sociopolitical standpoint: political lesbianism. I think Kathleen Stock is perhaps guilty of this as well (whether that reflects on her personally or not,) in her recent Quilette article peddling her book Material Girls, that I have not read. There was a thread here recently about that, she's part of LGB Alliance leadership and often writes for Lesbian and Gay News. Bindel is also a prominent figure.

I'm actually a little bit perturbed.

Look, I don't care who you partner with, by choice or by reasons of physiological compulsion. But if you're a woman who does not have exclusive non-volitional sexual and romantic interest in women, don't dare conflate the two.

We have given up our choice for a medical diagnosis with no scientific basis.

Wow, Queer Theory much? sExUaL oRiEnTaTiOn Is A sOcIaL cOnStRuCt!

Jesus. It's not magic. It's entirely deterministic, even though we may not fully understand the mechanisms. Similar in the way to that we can make bets on the concept of gravity, sending probes to other planets and what-not, even if we don't fully know why it works the way that it does. We can measure it, we can bet on it, it's a real thing. I can choose to let loose a hammer over my foot, but I can't will its fall.

“…for me, it is a choice. I understand that for many people it’s not, but for me it’s a choice, and you don’t get to define my gayness for me.”

I unapologetically will.

You know what this all reminds me of? Autogynephiles. They really, really do want to wear "woman" as a meat suit. But they can't, and they know that. They also know deep down, that they're not "trapped in a man's body." There's this idea that's so pleasing to them, yet unobtainable save for poor fascimie. These are the folk that are the radicals of the transgender movement, these are the ones that have inserted themselves into many of the activists organizations, these are the....

It's that cognitive dissonance between not being the thing and desperately wanting to be the thing that causes the activism.

[–]hufflepuff-poet 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ew "it's a choice...". I don't care if a woman has sex and dates other women only because she hates men, that's a heterosexual problem not mine. But when she turns her rejection of men into lesbianism that's when I have a problem. I'm not a lesbian because I hate men, I have plenty of male friends and family I love and respect, I'm a lesbian because I love and am attracted to women, only.

I don't understand why these women don't just call themselves"politically celibate" that actually gets the point across that they are refusing to partner with men because of their feminist beliefs AND can actually be tools in the fight for feminism, if they are used to highlight a problem and power imbalance in heterosexual relationships. Political lesbianism just waters down their point and hurts lesbians by pushing that "gay is a choice" bullshit.

If gay were a choice, I wouldn't be here cus I never would've had to accept my homosexuality, I simply would've chosen to date men, but as a lesbian--that's not an option for me unless I want to live a miserable life and dig myself an early grave.

[–]MyLongestJourney 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Ew "it's a choice...". I don't care if a woman has sex and dates other women only because she hates men, that's a heterosexual problem not mine. But when she turns her rejection of men into lesbianism that's when I have a problem. I'm not a lesbian because I hate men, I have plenty of male friends and family I love and respect, I'm a lesbian because I love and am attracted to women, only.

Hear,hear!

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's that cognitive dissonance between not being the thing and desperately wanting to be the thing that causes the activism.

Oh absolutely. They doth protest too much. They can’t understand the nuances of being gay if they’re not gay to begin with.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

This article is from July 2014. What a quaint time. As many of you know, Julie Bindel is a prominent voice in the radical feminist movement and critic of gender ideology. But her thought process here underscores why her political lesbianism is just as much (or almost as much) of an appropriation of female homosexuality as transbianism. This gets reflected back onto us because she refuses to recognize that maybe just maybe there are women who are not like her who just happen to be attracted to women exclusively without it being a political statement or statement about men or an active rejection of men. This contributes to every actual lesbian getting labeled a TERF for having the audacity to be openly homosexual.

Not to mention, she sounds like an alien outsider who I can in no way relate to. She cannot advocate for the rights of young lesbians if she doesn’t even recognize that natural exclusive same-sex attraction exists. She cannot both advocate for us and our needs while denying our existence.

I find it sad how lesbians are never represented by actual lesbians. I can’t even extricate our own lesbian heritage from this misandrist political movement. I can’t relate to nonsense about “performing femininity” and butch and femme “identities.” It just comes across mostly as narcissistic projection.

And while I do appreciate the advent of the Lesbian and Gay News, it seems that nearly all content from lesbians and bisexual females is based in political lesbianism/FEBFem. It’s incredibly alienating and also makes it so that there is no room for any lesbian positivity on there. Because their entire notion of lesbianism is based on being “anti” things and not just being female while happening to only be attracted to other women. I have nothing in common with her.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

she refuses to recognize that maybe just maybe there are women who are not like her who just happen to be attracted to women exclusively without it being a political statement or statement about men or an active rejection of men.

Sexuality is just a biological drive, it has nothing to do with what kind of politics, values, etc you should have. She seems to tie her feminism to her lesbianism when they are unrelated. Probably why GLF went under

[–]reluctant_commenter 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Not to mention, she sounds like an alien outsider who I can in no way relate to. She cannot advocate for the rights of young lesbians if she doesn’t even recognize that natural exclusive same-sex attraction exists. She cannot both advocate for us and our needs while denying our existence.

I COMPLETELY agree. I could not agree more. I am not a mind reader, I cannot say whether or not Julie Bindel is actually same-sex attracted; but regardless of whether she is exclusively same sex attracted or not, many young LGB people are, and she is doing a terrible job of representing us.

I find it sad how lesbians are never represented by actual lesbians. I can’t even extricate our own lesbian heritage from this misandrist political movement. I can’t relate to nonsense about “performing femininity” and butch and femme “identities.” It just comes across mostly as narcissistic projection.

Also completely agree. I don't mind so much if feminists want to sit there and theorize about how one's experience of sexism might be different if one were same-sex-attracted versus not; I think that's an interesting discussion to be had. But that discussion can't just be had in a vacuum, because many feminists-- be it TQ+ liberal feminists, or radical feminists-- assume that one can choose to be same-sex attracted and thus force their way in to an invisible minority group and speak over its members.

I am so glad you posted about this. I have stopped reading most "Lesbian & Gay News" articles because of the homophobic angle in some of their articles. I already see enough of the same bullshit spouted by TQ+ activists. (I do appreciate the legal articles though, those tend to stay pretty on-topic.) And I'm not sure how much overlap there is between LGN and LGB Alliance, but there seems to be some substantial amount of overlap, which concerns me.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am so glad you posted about this. I have stopped reading most "Lesbian & Gay News" articles because of the homophobic angle in some of their articles. I already see enough of the same bullshit spouted by TQ+ activists.

Which ones tipped you over the edge? Just the radfem ones or others too?

(I do appreciate the legal articles though, those tend to stay pretty on-topic.)

Dennis Kavanaugh, the legal commentator for LGN also has a blog. He does provide quality legal analysis. His articles are my favorite too.

And I'm not sure how much overlap there is between LGN and LGB Alliance, but there seems to be some substantial amount of overlap, which concerns me.

I have wondered this too. I have been watching LGB Alliance though and I don’t think I’ve seen evidence yet that it is run by political lesbians but I also don’t expect them to call out political lesbians when they are focused on trying to gather a base of support.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Which ones tipped you over the edge? Just the radfem ones or others too?

Mostly just the radfem ones. I can dig up a couple examples if you're interested.

Dennis Kavanaugh, the legal commentator for LGN also has a blog. He does provide quality legal analysis. His articles are my favorite too.

Did not know that, will take a look!

I have wondered this too. I have been watching LGB Alliance though and I don’t think I’ve seen evidence yet that it is run by political lesbians

Apart from the Kathleen Stock connection, I'm not sure either, but I think the possibility's concerning and we ought to keep an eye out for it. I'm actually really glad to see that a lot of other people on this thread share similar concerns, I wasn't sure if it was just us.

but I also don’t expect them to call out political lesbians when they are focused on trying to gather a base of support.

Agreed, although I hope they would if given the chance. Have you seen much by LGB Fight Back? They seem to strike a noticeably different tone from LGB Alliance's.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I'm confused by political lesbians. Are they bi women who have decided not to date men? Alternatively, are these straight women who are having relationships and sex with other women, or are they straight, celibate women who like to rant about how theyre lesbians and hate men?

The only political lesbian I have met was a lesbian lesbian, who was very into her weird Marxist lesbian politics. A small sample size, so I'm intrigued about what motivates these women.

[–]usehername 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not sure about their motivations but:

Are they bi women who have decided not to date men?

Women like that generally call themselves FEBfems (female-exclusive bisexual females), but yeah, it's possible that some of them (political lesbians) are really bi women (more likely) or even lesbians (less likely) who have convinced themselves that they chose to be attracted to women.

A political lesbian is a woman who believes she has "chosen to become a lesbian" for political reasons.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

They're straight celibate women who live with each other. I've never met one in person, they seem rarer than hen's teeth.

Bisexuals are uninvolved in this. It's rare for a bisexual woman to be so dedicated a feminist that she would commit her entire lifestyle to it. Feminism is harsh on bisexual women.

This idea that Marxist feminists are anti-lesbian is a new one to me. They used to mostly be lesbians. This seems to be a dispute between bourgeois lesbians and a Marxist lesbian over self-definition. It's a class and political disagreement.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

they seem rarer than hen's teeth.

They're not that rare, at least in the media. Some of them post frequently on the "Lesbian & Gay News" website that is frequently shared on this sub! Examples:

  • Julie Bindel

  • Sheila Jeffreys

  • Kathleen Stock -- the other two have come out as explicitly saying "sexual orientation is a choice," but she has implicitly suggested it as well. See this recent discussion post, e.g. this comment

And Kathleen Stock just got added as a trustee to LGB Alliance. So there are some self-identified "political lesbians" for you. And they are trying to frame themselves as "LGB leaders". Seems a little concerning to me, but I'm happy to hear arguments otherwise.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I was talking about the general population in the U.S. I was an active gender critical feminist before 2016 and I never saw or heard of one in that subculture either.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'd be curious about numbers of the general population in the US, but I'm not aware of any survey data like that, and it'd probably be difficult to get accurate numbers even if there were; they seem more unpopular in the US than in some other countries, such as the UK, and people might be afraid of responding to such a survey.

Julie Bindel and Sheila Jeffreys are both radical feminists/GC, but I don't know how well-known they are in GC circles.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, they're both really well known but they're about it as far as political lesbians go. I have a vague memory there were more in the seventies but radical feminists don't seem to reference them much. It was never promoted or encouraged that I can remember and I remember no posters who claimed to be political lesbians.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

It's not my community, so my opinion is only worth so much, but saying Julie Bindel isn't a lesbian is totally absurd.

Her support for political lesbianism is one thing that she could be disputed on, but she does not appear to be a political lesbian. I can say she absolutely does not have a typical bisexual experience or presentation. That is something I can speak on definitively.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Her support for political lesbianism is one thing that she could be disputed on, but she does not appear to be a political lesbian. I can say she absolutely does not have a typical bisexual experience or presentation. That is something I can speak on definitively.

I will say the same thing about her account of her experience of being a lesbian being completely foreign and alien. The fact that she thinks that women who have attraction to men can “choose” to be a lesbian and attracted to women is absurd and completely detached from the experience of being a lesbian. Like, hey, I like that I like women because I think women are hot. I also know that I didn’t choose to. It’s just who my body responds to.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I think she's operating off of an older definition of lesbianism than you are. She seems to think lesbian= woman who exclusively partners with other women. This seems to be a common belief among Boomer lesbians.

The adolescence she describes sounds proto-typically lesbian to me. I've known many woman who came of age in a similar way to her. No bisexuals I know of were denying boys attention and thought they were lesbians at 15.

Political lesbianism as far as I can tell is totally separate from homosexuality, so it's apples to oranges.

My point being that the community changed around 2014 when this was written and Bindel was addressing this to younger lesbians basically telling you you're wrong. That's definitely the tone I picked up.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The adolescence she describes sounds proto-typically lesbian to me. I've known many woman who came of age in a similar way to her. No bisexuals I know of were denying boys attention and thought they were lesbians at 15.

Even if she is actually lesbian, I think it's pretty ridiculous of her to go around suggesting that "sexual orientation is a choice" and that she "chose to be a lesbian."

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I mean, that sounds like bullshit to me too. I've said it already upthread, but I think she's operating off of an older definition of lesbianism that has gone by the wayside because of societal changes.

This is a dispute within the lesbian community about self-definiton. The go-to method of resolving inter-lesbian disputes seem to be to declare the offending lesbian to be a bisexual. Julie Bindel shows absolutely no signs or symptoms of being bisexual.

I think this disagreement is based on class differences and generational differences between modern lesbians who work professional jobs and a woman who came of age in a time when lesbianism was inherently subversive and revolutionary.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Which part is bullshit? That she thinks "sexual orientation is a choice"? She literally said that herself, in the article. One can agree with the idea or not, but she said it, and has said it many times before.

Julie Bindel shows absolutely no signs or symptoms of being bisexual.

I did not say Julie Bindel was bisexual. I said, even if she is lesbian, I don't think she should have written an article saying that "sexual orientation is a choice" and similar beliefs. That claim is anti-scientific and I would say it harms all LGB people.

The go-to method of resolving inter-lesbian disputes seem to be to declare the offending lesbian to be a bisexual.

This is a pretty broad generalization, and I'm not sure it's fair to make. I've seen it on s/lesbians before, I will say, which is part of why I stopped spending time there, but that sub is hardly a representative sample of ALL lesbian women, lol.

I think you're missing an important point, though: some straight women have a vested interest in lying about their sexual orientation and saying that they are "lesbian." This behavior comes from a belief system, it's well-documented, and Julie Bindel is a fervent believer in that ideology. So, someone suggesting, "Hey, this person who says that they think sexual orientation is a choice, might have just decided to call themselves lesbian even if they actually are not," is a logical possibility to raise.

I do get bothered when people immediately assume that some far-left queer theorist or radfem saying homophobic remarks must be bisexual. Statistically speaking, it is way more likely that a person lying about being LGB is actually heterosexual, not bisexual. For some people, there may be some negative bias going on there.

in a time when lesbianism was inherently subversive and revolutionary.

Homosexuality, i.e. exclusive same-sex attraction, is simply a feature of nature, and it's found in many other animals besides human beings. Depending on the historical context, it has sometimes been and will probably be in the future called "subversive" or "revolutionary," but that still doesn't change what the objective phenomenon is. Julie Bindel is someone who holds the unsubstantiated belief that "homosexuality is a choice," and at the end of the day, she's still spreading misinformation about same-sex attraction regardless of whoever she personally is attracted to.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Which part is bullshit? That she thinks "sexual orientation is a choice"?

I was agreeing with you that saying sexual orientation is a choice is bullshit. Bindel seems to think lesbianism is a choice separate from experiencing homosexual attraction. She is operating on an old definition of lesbian which is not used anymore (I think.)

I did not say that Julie Bindel was bisexual.

The comment you responded to was a response from me to a comment by the OP in which she accused Bindel of being bisexual. The entire point of my comment was to say Bindel is not bisexual and to offer a separate read on the situation. I was reiterating my point from the comment you responded to.

This is a pretty broad generalization, and I'm not sure it's fair to make.

I've seen it so much online that it's absolutely a feature of online gay communities. I think it's reflective of groupthink and anonymity in online groups. I also think it reflects that pattern of purity spiraling that small communities go through when placed under extreme stress. The threat of being labeled bisexual also gets used in real life gay communities to enforce conformity. It's understood that you avoid bisexual-type behavior if you can.

To reiterate my other point, I don't think Julie Bindel is lying about being a lesbian. I think she dates back to another time prior to the sexual revolution and has not adapted to social changes.

Honestly, the consequences of being declared not gay or so severe at her age it's what's driving her to dig her heels in. She has nowhere to go if she gets shunned. Ask me how little concern bisexual women are given by lesbians. Not being a lesbian means not mattering.

You're never going to dispute her claims without understanding why she's making them, and I'm not convinced she's actually harming any of you. None of you have lost a job, been homeless, been raped, been forced into a marriage because of anything Julie Bindel said or did. She's helped all of you a lot.

Unless there's some other issue not being mentioned.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I was agreeing with you that saying sexual orientation is a choice is bullshit.

Ah, gotcha.

She is operating on an old definition of lesbian which is not used anymore (I think.)

Unfortunately, it is being used quite frequently-- by trans rights activists, of course, but also by some women who identify as gender-critical such as her and also potentially Kathleen Stock. Don't get me wrong, I have heard that WAY more from both religious conservatives and trans rights activists! (Partly because there are just more TRAs and conservative homophobes than there are radfems, period.) But that belief is foundational to many radical feminist claims, as well.

The comment you responded to was a response from me to a comment by the OP in which she accused Bindel of being bisexual.

It was? I thought YSTT said this:

I will say the same thing about her account of her experience of being a lesbian being completely foreign and alien. The fact that she thinks that women who have attraction to men can “choose” to be a lesbian and attracted to women is absurd and completely detached from the experience of being a lesbian. Like, hey, I like that I like women because I think women are hot. I also know that I didn’t choose to. It’s just who my body responds to.

Doesn't sound like she's saying that Bindel is bisexual, but just that her experience is not personally relatable. I saw elsewhere in the thread people suggesting that Bindel was bisexual, however.

The threat of being labeled bisexual also gets used in real life gay communities to enforce conformity. It's understood that you avoid bisexual-type behavior if you can.

I will admit, I know less about the experience of bisexual men in GB men's communities; there seems to be an extra layer of pressure on bisexual men to identify as homosexual. I do think it's worth observing, though, that it would be oversimplification to suggest that having a healthy-- but polite!-- degree of skepticism regarding the sexual orientation of a person who spouts homophobic comments, is just borne out of paranoia (not saying you said this, but I've seen people suggest it before). I'd call it reasonable to have a measure of skepticism in such cases because LGB people are an invisible minority, and some relatively-sizeable proportion of humans are going to lie about their sexual orientation, for various reasons (sometimes political; sometimes just psychopathological).

She has nowhere to go if she gets shunned.

I don't think she should get shunned, even if she were straight and making shit up, I just think she should be honest if she wants to represent LGB people, and her saying "I chose to be a lesbian and you can too" is really dishonest, at multiple levels.

Ask me how little concern bisexual women are given by lesbians. Not being a lesbian means not mattering.

I think some self-identified lesbian women choose to unfairly take out their anger on bisexual women; however, what I'm talking about with Julie Bindel is much bigger than lesbian-bisexual relations.

You're never going to dispute her claims without understanding why she's making them, and I'm not convinced she's actually harming any of you. None of you have lost a job, been homeless, been raped, been forced into a marriage because of anything Julie Bindel said or did. She's helped all of you a lot.

No fucking way has she helped me if she's sitting there saying "Homosexuality is a choice!" Look, I appreciate you trying to take the positive out of the situation and think of generational differences, but this belief Julie Bindel is choosing to broadcast DOES end up increasing the risk of harmful outcomes that LGB people face such as homelessness, sexual assault, being pressured into heterosexual relationships, etc. That is NOT helpful at all. In fact, this belief she's pushing-- "sexual orientation is a choice!"-- is exactly what made conservative religious bigots think that gay conversion therapy worked! Julie Bindel did not personally make me homeless or rape me, lmao, but growing up I was was forced to stay in the closet or risk undergoing additional trauma because I was surrounded by people who believed "sexual orientation is a choice" just like Julie Bindel does.

I imagine Julie Bindel believes she is helping LGB people, I'm not trying to say she's evil or something, maybe she's a lovely person to talk to, but this is a harmful choice she's making and it does have consequences for LGB people.

Unless there's some other issue not being mentioned.

The issue that I've mentioned is that some women-- mostly straight, not bisexual!-- think it's fun to play pretend and say they "chose" to be lesbians, and they do this because they believe in shitty, homophobic stereotypes about lesbians: "I want to be a big, mean lesbian, so I'll choose to be one!" I have, actually, met a couple people like that online, and one in real life (although the real-life one was actually a TRA, not a radical feminist). And I'm fucking SICK of the women doing that, it's so homophobic. They speak over actual LGB people and reinforce stereotypes. And no, I do not blame bisexual women for that; most of the women who do that are likely to be straight.

If you see someone bashing bisexuals, please feel free to message me and I'll report/argue with them, this is an all-LGB community and it's important to be respectful of everyone here. But, when I criticize Julie Bindel here, I am not criticizing bisexuality or bisexuals (and I have no desire to).

edit: Sorry this comment is so long, I didn't realize it was til I posted it lol. I care a lot about when people who push the good ol' "you can just choose to be gay" falsehood because it's so common and also so unscientific. I thought maybe I would not have to hear it so much after separating myself from some homophobic conservative people, and now I hear it from liberals all the time... and it's extra frustrating to hear it from a person who claims to represent LGB people.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That was a very long post but I appreciate that you took the time to think it through and write back to me.

I feel like I've been roped into defending a woman I don't even agree with, ultimately it's not my call whether she's a lesbian or not. The idea that homosexuality is a choice is certainly harmful.

I jumped in because the train of double standards about bisexual identity had started rolling and I felt like it was a battle to fight.

You can't diagnose non-conformist gay people as bisexual against their will based on implications taken from their attitudes (I know you weren't doing this! Several other people were.)

Most of those people are also regulars on the threads that mock and deride bisexual women who have only had heterosexual relationships, apparently unaware or not caring that those women fall under the same standard that a secretly bisexual lesbian theoretically would.

So... I wanted to tell them they were wrong and to knock it off. My opinion of Julie Bindel really isn't relevant. I've never liked radfems anyway.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No bisexuals I know of were denying boys attention and thought they were lesbians at 15.

Hmm, I guess that passage stuck out to me as well. I mean- it could really just be her politics there too, but that would also be a bit odd, now that I think about it. Maybe she's both? Idk either way.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Bindel#Lesbianism,_marriage

"Bindel refers to herself as a political lesbian feminist."

Not a lesbian who is political or a feminist. A political lesbian. A qualifier on lesbian.

I read this by Bindel and I get the sense that her desires are strictly heterosexual:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090204041631/http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/30/women-gayrights

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

From the second link (article):

The publication of LYE was the one of the first times that the notion of sexuality as a choice had been publicly raised in the UK women's movement.

Fantastic. Some radical feminists helped popularize this particular piece of pseudoscience.

Yeah, I see what you mean when Julie Bindel says this:

Others, such as myself, found that the arguments in LYE spoke directly to feelings that had already been developing. Opponents of political lesbianism argue that "genuine" lesbians are motivated purely by lust towards women, rather than a decision to reject men and heterosexuality. For me, however, my lesbianism is intrinsically bound up with my feminist politics and my campaigning against sexual violence.

And, her "instrinsic sense" personal feelings are given more weight than any empirical evidence:

To me, political lesbianism continues to make intrinsic sense because it reinforces the idea that sexuality is a choice, and we are not destined to a particular fate because of our chromosomes.

And she ends with this entreaty:

Stop pretending you think lesbianism is an exclusive members' club, and join the ranks. I promise that you will not regret it.

What a fucking homophobic thing to say. Can we play a game of "TRA or radfem"? That literally reads like it's from the sidebar of r/actualtransbians.

Sorry to go off about this on your comment lol, I'm just amazed by this person's audacity to make up bullshit for her own personal ends. I didn't think she was that bad initially, but the more I read her writing, the more I'm disappointed.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

She studiously avoids mentioning sexual attraction so much it's impossible to tell who she wants.

The sexual history she gives sounds lesbian to me, I'm not sure what the benefit of redefining the identity of a woman who's been an out lesbian for more than 40 years is supposed to be.

This seems to boil down to a political disagreement between lesbians of different social classes over self-definition.

To me she's a lesbian in word and deed, you can't evaluate thought without engaging in some pretty fucked up behavior.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m with you, it is shitty behavior. Sometimes you’ve got to go wrestle in the muck and it ain’t that nice. I’m however not going to sit here on my hands and never challenge somebody’s identity. Or what that identity should be a membership of. That’s exactly how you end up where we are today with the T.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean that's good and all, I think she qualifies as a lesbian and the issue is related to class differences between lesbian.

Ops standard of lesbianism makes most homosexual women who lived before the 90s actually bisexual.

[–]Destresse🇨🇵 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I have once had a discussion with my sister that lots of lesbians have the same facial structures. There is some sort genetic at play, I believe.

If there were more research done on female homosexuality I'd actually have an easier time accepting myself, and that's why those kinds of "I chose to be a lesbian" statement really make me angry. My main problem with my sexual orientation is that, to me, it doesn't make sense. I can't make sense of it. Why in the world am I a lesbian? What's the purpose of this? What's my role in the species?

One thing in particular I've always found unsettling. In periods of ovulation, I get horny. If I were straight, this would make sense, since it would be to maximise the chances of reproduction. But me? What is the point of this? This is usually when I circle back into "am I really just defective?"

I try really hard not to dislike my sexual orientation on a daily basis and here these women go, being "out and proud" when they don't even know what being a lesbian is. They've found their sense in it. Yeah good for them, I guess. Meanwhile, lesbians will go many more years being ignored.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Facial Structure Predicts Sexual Orientation in Both Men and Women

Yeah, facial features are biomarkers of non-heterosexuality. One of many. In a sense, we have scientifically studied gaydar.

[–]MyLongestJourney 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This is a single study of a mere 52 lesbian women,134 heterosexual women ,77 gay men and 127 heterosexual men.

Lesbian women had noses that were more turned up

As a Greek LOL.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, I read the intro and was like, clearly they didn't do this on Slavs lol. Turned up noses? Pouty lips? It would be interesting though to do the same study but on different ethnic populations.

[–]MyLongestJourney 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I read the intro and was like, clearly they didn't do this on Slavs lol

Haha.

[–]Destresse🇨🇵 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Before I even read I thought it had to be the nose for both gay men and lesbians lol

That's very interesting.

[–]MyLongestJourney 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It is pure bullshit.Coming from a Greek whose nation has barely any noses "turn up".

[–]julesburm1891 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I agree. There’s not enough research into what causes female homosexuality. When Deborah Soh was on Joe Rogan's podcast she mentioned that there might be a relationship to lesbianism and the amount of testosterone a female fetus is exposed to in the womb. I feel like that actually makes sense and could explain why so many lesbians have a lot of chutzpah about them. (Like, why a 1/3 of the female nurses in my partner’s ER are lesbians and why so many female soldiers I served with in the Guard were lesbians.) There does seem to be something that draws lesbians into more high-adrenaline roles and it’s certainly not how our cultures socialize girls.

But, completely anecdotally, I think it’s weird that I’ve met very few gay men and lesbians who are the lone, rogue homosexual in their family. There always seems to be others. My partner has her sister and two paternal cousins. I have a maternal great-aunt and maternal uncle. That makes me think that there probably is a genetic component to this.

In periods of ovulation, I get horny.

That’s not weird. It happens to me and it’s happened to every woman I’ve ever dated too. I don’t think our bodies are so rational as to be like, “well since the sex I desire won’t result in procreation, I shan’t be sexually aroused when I am most likely to become pregnant.” It’s probably more like our bodies are saying, “I could have a baby so let’s GO.”

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lone, rogue homosexual lol. I don’t know of any others in my family but they could just not be out since most of my extended family doesn’t know I’m gay either and we’re not close. My dad did say when I was younger that he had a gay uncle, but that’s all I know of. My girlfriend has a gay cousin.

Notably gay seems to track in identical twins but most of the time trans-identification doesn’t. Homosexual transexual Laverne Cox’s identical twin is a self-reportedly has sex with both men and women (idk if he’s used the word bisexual). But to be honest, if you look at him, it is hard to imagine him with a woman.

[–]usehername 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But, completely anecdotally, I think it’s weird that I’ve met very few gay men and lesbians who are the lone, rogue homosexual in their family. There always seems to be others. My partner has her sister and two paternal cousins. I have a maternal great-aunt and maternal uncle. That makes me think that there probably is a genetic component to this.

I'll add another anecdote to the pot; my mother and aunt are also bisexual.

I don’t think our bodies are so rational as to be like, “well since the sex I desire won’t result in procreation, I shan’t be sexually aroused when I am most likely to become pregnant.”

LMAO

[–]MyLongestJourney 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Homosexual woman here (being Greek and all,I decided not to use the term lesbian anymore as it belongs to one of our own islands).

I think the idea of "political lesbian" is profoundly disillusioned. Sexual instincts are not affected by political ideas.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I didn't get the impression from the article that she is a political lesbian, just that she considers coming out as a lesbian and adopting the identity to be a choice that she's proud of. She doesn't mention being sexually attracted to men, and given that this was written in 2014 she seems to be reacting to political dialogue surrounding the American gay marriage campaigns.

I am a bisexual and she does not read in any way bisexual to me. She seems very typically lesbian.

What is your definition of a lesbian?

She seems to think it's a women who exclusively partners with other women.

[–]MyLongestJourney 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

What is your definition of a lesbian?

Lesbian = Adjective of origin referring to the Greek isle of Lesbos.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

At this point I would be OK with a new word that connotes natural, exclusive female homosexuality and lacks political connotation. I’m willing to throw lesbian into the memory hole. Gay woman and homosexual work until that word exists.

That’s the thing, does Julie Bindel even call herself gay? Or just “lesbian” and “homosexual?”

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Ahhh, you got me 😉

What sexual orientation is Julie Bindel? Why?

[–]strictly 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

What sexual orientation is Julie Bindel?

Bisexual.

Why?

Her account of her "homosexuality" sounds alien to homosexual women. I can't reread her article it as it's under paywall but if she has more or less explicitly stated it wouldn't be hard at all for her to be with men (I assume it was in this article but can't say for sure as I don't have access to it right now), so she is obviously attracted to men. For a homosexual woman it would be hard, like torture, due to the sexual turn off. My guess is that she isn't exclusively attracted to men though, aka not straight, that would mean she is attracted to both sexes. A person who is attracted to both men and women is bisexual.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I read the full article, she does not mention attraction to men or relationships with men.

She isn't bisexual just because you can't relate to her. I don't relate to her either. The argument against her lesbianism seems to be based on attempts at mind reading.

[–]strictly 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I read the full article, she does not mention attraction to men or relationships with men.

Does she mention it wouldn't be hard for her to be with men? That is like directly admitting she is attracted to men as it wouldn't be hard for her, as without attraction it would be hard indeed. Otherwise it was in another article she said that. She also says she chooses to be a lesbian which also sounds like she is admitting being attracted to men and just not acting on it, and thinks not acting on male attraction makes her "homosexual". I think she has said some biphobic things in the past too and internalized biphobia could be the reason why she isn't calling herself bisexual.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No. If she's said that in other circumstances it could just as easily mean that she could closet herself and marry a man. She seems deliberately vague about it, and has not had relationships with men in her almost fifty years of adulthood.

I think this fight over what a lesbian is boils down to differing needs between women of different economic classes and how that interrelates with how they express their sexuality. Bindel benefits from recruiting as many women as possible into exclusively partnering with women, and the mostly white-collar professional women she's addressing this to don't.

Times changed, lesbians went mainstream.

[–]strictly 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It could just as easily mean that she could closet herself and marry a man.

A homosexual woman who forces herself to have sexual relationship with men would live in torture, it would be hard for that homosexual woman, not easy. Julie Bindel says it wouldn’t be hard for her (and she referred to sex/attraction in the article I read where she said that, not fake relationships).

has not had relationships with men in her almost fifty years of adulthood.

Haven't seen/heard her talk about her sexual history. Does she claim to never had sex with a man?

Bindel benefits from recruiting as many women as possible into exclusively partnering with women, and the mostly white-collar professional she's addressing this to don't.

You mean you think she is pretending to be bisexual in hopes to get as many bisexual women as possible to become febfems?

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, I do not mean that. Bindel has a very different idea of sexuality and sexual expression than you and I do. She is not bisexual by any metric I evaluate it on, and the argument lesbians are making essentially boils down to "she's so wrong about lesbianism she can't possibly be one."

How 'bout you paste the article address into an archive site and read it yourself.

[–]MyLongestJourney 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Homosexual I presume. Unless I am misinformed.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

See, that's my read on it too. She endorses political lesbianism but seems to be an actual lesbian herself.

I don't think having a different concept of her own orientation precludes her from being homosexual and means she must be bisexual.

Bisexuals have the same right to self-define that homosexuals do. A woman who has been exclusively homosexual her entire adult life is not bisexual.

[–]MyLongestJourney 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Her being an actual homosexual,does not change my opinion.Political lesbianism is fucking stupid.

[–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

"You can choose to be a lesbian" is ill-informed and in most contexts homophobic, regardless of it's coming from a far-right bigot or a far-left bigot bragging about how she "chose" to be a lesbian. I do not love misinformation or bigotry; if this person does, that's her business but it is NOT her business to speak for "lesbians as a whole" and suggest that.

I'm starting to realize that I will probably never feel comfortable calling myself "lesbian" and it's not just because of fetishistic pornography or because of how the word has been co-opted by some extremist, autogynephilic men; it is specifically because of radical feminism, co-opting the word and spreading misinformation about it. The more I read about radical feminism, the more I am convinced that it not only harbors homophobia but that homophobia is baked into its foundational beliefs. If this is what "lesbian" means then I'm not lesbian, I'm homosexual, thank you.

I loved the sense that I had chosen my sexuality and rather than being ashamed or apologetic about it, as many women were, I could be proud, and see it as a privilege. In those days I would wear badges proclaiming “We recruit!”

How is this any better than the benevolent homophobia of the TQ+ movement?

I and many other lesbians do not wish to dance to the bigot’s tune.

You may not wish to, but you are anyway.

I am become more and more concerned about the possibility that homophobic TQ+ voices may simply be replaced by... homophobic radical feminist voices. I am sure that some people who hold many radical feminist beliefs are not homophobic, but there is a clear and consistent trend here.

edit: typo

[–]julesburm1891 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

The fact that we deal with homophobia and fetishization from TQ+, radical feminism, and general society is maddening. (Especially because the first two pretend to care about us.) It’s like being stuck between a rock, a hard place, and, I don’t know, the trash compactor in the first Star Wars.

[–]reluctant_commenter 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

It’s like being stuck between a rock, a hard place, and, I don’t know, the trash compactor in the first Star Wars.

Oh my god, lol. I'm seriously tempted to steal that. Hahaha

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

There is a gay gene (at least one that causes it in men.) We don't understand how it works, but it is a simple mathematical, statistical matter of demographic survey and genetic analysis to find that it's there. It's still a Darwinian mystery.

  • J. M. Bailey et al., A family history study of male sexual orientation using three in- dependent samples. Behav. Genet. 29, 79–86 (1999).

  • Camperio-Ciani, F. Corna, C. Capiluppi, Evidence for maternally inherited factors favouring male homosexuality and promoting female fecundity. Proc. Biol. Sci. 271, 2217–2221 (2004).

  • D. H. Hamer, S. Hu, V. L. Magnuson, N. Hu, A. M. Pattatucci, A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation. Science 261, 321–327 (1993).

  • Q. Rahman et al., Maternal inheritance and familial fecundity factors in male ho- mosexuality. Arch. Sex. Behav. 37, 962–969 (2008).

  • S. W. Semenyna, D. P. VanderLaan, L. J. Petterson, P. L. Vasey, Familial patterning and prevalence of male androphilia in Samoa. J. Sex Res. 54, 1077–1084 (2017).

  • G. Schwartz, R. M. Kim, A. B. Kolundzija, G. Rieger, A. R. Sanders, Biodemographic and physical correlates of sexual orientation in men. Arch. Sex. Behav. 39, 93–109 (2010).

  • D. P. Vanderlaan, D. L. Forrester, L. J. Petterson, P. L. Vasey, The prevalence of fa’afafine relatives among Samoan gynephilic men and fa’afafine. Arch. Sex. Behav. 42, 353–359 (2013).

  • D. P. Vanderlaan, J. R. Vokey, P. L. Vasey, Is transgendered male androphilia familial in non-Western populations? The case of a Samoan village. Arch. Sex. Behav. 42, 361– 370 (2013).

  • K. Alanko et al., Common genetic effects of gender atypical behavior in childhood and sexual orientation in adulthood: A study of Finnish twins. Arch. Sex. Behav. 39, 81–92 (2010).

  • J. M. Bailey, M. P. Dunne, N. G. Martin, Genetic and environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample. J. Pers. Soc. Psychol. 78, 524–536 (2000).

  • K. S. Kendler, L. M. Thornton, S. E. Gilman, R. C. Kessler, Sexual orientation in a U.S. national sample of twin and nontwin sibling pairs. Am. J. Psychiatry 157, 1843–1846 (2000).

  • K. M. Kirk, J. M. Bailey, M. P. Dunne, N. G. Martin, Measurement models for sexual orientation in a community twin sample. Behav. Genet. 30, 345–356 (2000).

  • N. Långström, Q. Rahman, E. Carlström, P. Lichtenstein, Genetic and environmental effects on same-sex sexual behavior: A population study of twins in Sweden. Arch. Sex. Behav. 39, 75–80 (2010).

  • P. Santtila et al., Potential for homosexual response is prevalent and genetic. Biol. Psychol. 77, 102–105 (2008).

  • B. S. Mustanski et al., A genomewide scan of male sexual orientation. Hum. Genet. 116, 272–278 (2005).

  • A. R. Sanders et al., Genome-wide scan demonstrates significant linkage for male sexual orientation. Psychol. Med. 45, 1379–1388 (2015).

  • B. Wang et al., Association analysis between the tag SNP for sonic hedgehog rs9333613 polymorphism and male sexual orientation. J. Androl. 33, 951–954 (2012).

[–]KingDickThe2nd 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Biological causations does not mean there is a "gay gene". Even the most avid supporter of biological determinism admits that it is caused by a multitude of different genetic markers rather that a single mythical "gay gene".

If homosexuality was purely biologically determined, then those case studies of twins would not have found that there is an increased likelihood that both twins are gay, but would have rather have found that all twins always have the same sexuality.

A more reasonable position is that it is a complicated mixture of biological and environmental factors that comes together to cause someone to be born homosexual.

And I'm not even going to get into "institutionalised homosexuality", which is neither biologically determined nor homosexuality.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay, let me re-frame: There is a genetic basis that predisposes a person to homosexuality. Of course there are other etiological factors. I appreciate your pedantry, and I could needle you on your remark about "born homosexual" wrt. twin studies.

[–]hufflepuff-poet 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Institutionalized homosexuality? Like when gay people were put in psych wards/asylums for being same-sex attracted? Or is this a more modern phenomenon?

[–]KingDickThe2nd 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A more historical term that doesn't seem to be vogue anymore.

It refers to people engaging in homosexual behaviour, but not out of their own free will. That the society that they belong to has created a cultural institution which forces them to engage in sexual behaviour with other males.

These types of cultural institutions could be forced transgenderism, where boys who are not considered masculine enough to be a males will be forced to live their lives as a woman from the age of 12 upwards. Generally because there are not enough females to take on the female gender roles in their society. This cultural norm is often called gender structured homosexuality, but unfortunately many biased historians and anthropologists have ignored the forced element and has subsequently been used by trans activists.

One other type of cultural institution is when same sex acts are performed in educational mentor relationship that is often called age-structured homosexuality. In these societies is a coming of age ceremony where a boy is to be mentored by a adult man, generally starting at the age of 12, although in some rare cases it can be as low as 7 in some particular societies. The man is generally expected to provide practical sex education (how to masturbate) to the boy and to develop a romantic relationship that is often officially recognised in the society (as a temporary civil union). Societies differ on whether the boy remains with his parents or moves into the man's house as a boy wife and on whether the sexual component is limited to mutual masturbation or extends to full anal sex. This behaviour is not something that is sort out by people in that society, but is rather an expected life stage that all individuals are meant to go through. There was also evidence of a woman - girl equivalent in some societies, but that was generally hidden and not celebrated as the male form was.

There is also the forced sex and rape that happens in prisons and historically on naval sailing ships (hence "in the navy").

All of these things are not really anything to do with biologically determined homosexuality, as the individuals are being forced to engage in same sex acts through manipulation and cohesion.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it's about the cases of straight men having homosexual relations in situations where there are (usually) no women present, such as prison or the army.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This article is great. It shows clearly why politics should always be kept at arms length from matters of sexual orientation. It has it's clear strategic benefits oftentimes, but I'd be damned if some spicy straight activist told me how my attractions/crushes were just privileged choices and I was simply giving in to my political enemies by even having them. They could f*** right off to the moon.

And yeah, Julie Bindel is a tad misandrist, pretty ignorant of Homosexuality and didn't really acknowledge Bisexuality(even her own?). I read a pretty messed up joke she made about keeping males of all ages in camps. It was in bad taste and at best very tactless and unwise. I don't know if she changed much since then but yeah.

So... best not to hug any Ideology, including Radical Feminism- too closely for this reason. You may have some overlap(maybe even a lot) in intermediate goals, but the end goal is different and may be rather incompatible with the things Lesbians really need. A lot of radfems don't really understand same-sex attraction and so wouldn't properly allot for it in their manifestos.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I've often gotten the impression that the definition of lesbian has gotten narrower over the years.

What did it mean in 1940?

1970?

2000?

By the modern definition Julie Binder is not a lesbian, despite being a very famous lesbian and very vocal about her identity.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

It’s sad but not shocking that natural, exclusive homosexual females have never represented ourselves or been allowed to have our own name separate from those who seek to co-opt our sexual orientation for their political, personal, or social ends.

“Lesbian” as she is defining it is inconsistent with the L in LGB and more consistent with the B. I can understand wanting a word that is female-leaning bisexual woman by nature and also wanting a word like FEBFem that represents the choice of female-only partners like Julie seems to have made. But to call herself L and then to say that L is a choice because I chose to be L is shitty.

She is vocal about her “identity” but as many of us are commenting, it’s not inherently an identity for us but a factual reality. Her “lesbian identity” is extremely foreign and unrelatable to me. And in the process she denies homosexuality and erases bisexuality as natural phenomena. Ultimately, she’a not merely asserting her identity, but denying our reality by conflating herself with us instead of respectfully recognizing the distinction.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Do you think the definition of lesbian has changed over time?

[–]kontreki 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

The definition of lesbian cant change and hasnt changed, no matter what the power dynamics for cultural appropriation are. It's no different then people trying to say the word "gay" has changed (when it really hasnt) because some straight or bi girl who colours her hair calls herself gay when gay just means a homosexual man. They didnt exactly contribute to creating the movement, or the word or anything and they sure as hell stayed away from it when it was associated with pedophilia until gay men were the ones to clear that up through incredible sacrifice.

Homosexual females needed a word just like homosexual males had one for themselves, so lesbian stuck. I highly doubt the word "gay" has changed or fluctuated simply because some people think it's up for grabs. The only thing that they've really managed to contribute is destroying the image of lesbians as man haters and women who are "sexually fluid" but hate men so it's more political...damaging the notion of homosexuality itself.

Lesbian, like gay, isnt getting narrower as if these people were allowed to identify as such in the first place. It's just that the word lesbian (especially the word gay) has such a gigantic, gargantuan and colossal weight to them that people like twisting and appropriating them because they have no foundations of their own to start since they dont want to lift a finger to do any hard work or sacrifice for themselves and other people that will come after them. Thats called a community. Thats the very essence of a community.

But im sure "people take the path of least resistance", so let gays and lesbians do all the hard work.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

What is that definition?

[–]kontreki 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

A homosexual female. Why does that confuse you? If someone asked you what "gay" meant, you'd know very well it meant homosexual male. You wouldnt say, "but there are some 15 year old girls who identify as gay because they dyed their hair purple"

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What does homosexual mean?

[–]Athelhilda2 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Attracted to the same sex (males & males and females & females).

[–]MyLongestJourney 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sexually attracted to the sex that is the same as their own."Homo" in the term homosexual is from the Greek word "όμοιος" = the same.

[–]usehername 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Pat, you're on an LGB forum right now.